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The argument that HTML5 apps cannot provide sufficient quality is growing increasing weak. There is no question that native apps provide better UI's, especially

The argument that HTML5 apps cannot provide sufficient quality is growing increasing weak. There is no question that native apps provide better UI's, especially in the case of iOS. As for Facebook, they built a terrible iOS app and blamed the technology. It doesn't matter what technology you use: own up and build good products. HTML5's problem is mobile browsers. They are all non-compliant with a myriad of quirks. You can build nifty native-like UI's in the iOS browser, but it takes lots of time to understand exactly how Mobile Safari implements 3d transforms and how they are so terribly bizarre. I won't even start with the Android browser because the situation is significantly worse[1]. We can build good mobile browsers. The problem is that mobile OS venders have had little incentive to build browsers capable of hosting competing apps with their respective marketplaces. They all build browsers that can view traditional webpages well, but no more. [1] Anyone who brings up mobile Chrome will get a mouthful about why that's terrible as well.

melling 14y ago
Rather than provide an academic argument as to why HTML5 apps are as good as native, it would be better to provide great examples of where it has worked. Even Steve Jobs originally thought web apps were all you needed but he was eventually convinced otherwise. In short, how about some proof by example? Lots of examples...
- rodion_89 14y ago
  I've always wondered why the App Store was a web app. It seems really out of place considering its job is to distribute native apps. On the other hand it has probably been the driving force to make mobile safari better.
  - wahnfrieden 14y ago
    Probably so that they can make iterations on its design without requiring people to download new software updates - a huge attraction of web apps.
    - rodion_89 14y ago
      I guess my question then is, why does that hold more true for the App Store than for any of their other native apps?
      - wahnfrieden 14y ago
        Their other built-in apps don't involve as much marketing efforts inside them and don't drive post-purchase sales. I guess there is Newsreader or whatever but I haven't used it and can't comment on it.
      - mmariani 14y ago
        Because the iTunes platform is written in Java with a legacy web framework called WebObjects. Also the iTunes business unity has more characteristics in common with Amazon than Apple itself. That's why we're stuck with a thin client for the AS.
- rodion_89 14y ago
  > There is no question that native apps provide better UI's This is was me talking about mobile. Then I went on to explain why. So I don't think I need to provide any examples there. As for HTML5 on the desktop you can peruse the Chrome Web Store to find some good stuff. iCloud.com is actually an excellent example of HTML5 done right (for the most part).
  - blub 14y ago
    Your html5 done right example fails to work on all three browsers on my phone (opera,firefox,native). Quite a performance...
    - rodion_89 14y ago
      > HTML5 on the desktop I wasn't talking about mobile. Try iCloud.com on Mac Safari, it's quite nice. Not sure what browsers Apple is targeting for this. My assumption is that the 5 major desktop browsers can host web apps of this quality if the app developer chooses to target them. Hopefully as time passes the "chooses to target them" part won't be an issue if standards-compliance is a norm.
  - mmariani 14y ago
    As you may know, iCloud is written in SproutCore. If you compare the development process and programmer productivity of SC with let's say Cocoa, you'll see SC can't get near Cocoa in these aspects. It's a mess.
- daleharvey 14y ago
  One fairly obvious example would be that facebook still have twice as many users on their web app as their native
hayksaakian 14y ago
Oh great knower of things, inform us as to how terrible chrome mobile is
- newhouseb 14y ago
  Most of the artifacts in Chrome Mobile stem from the fact that the latest stable version branches from Chrome 18 at which point the chrome compositor was in somewhat of a disastrous state (things are somewhat better in Chrome 20 and up). Chrome attempted/attempts to support transforms regardless of the underlying engine (be it OpenGL ES 2.0 or skia) and as result of this ended up implementing a lot of things that would be handled by OpenGL ES natively within Chrome itself, like backface culling, clipping, layer sorting, etc. Unfortunately, most of this math was wrong and as a result many things that use css3d transforms are a flickering disaster. Instead, I think they should have interfaced entirely through OpenGL ES and let a software implementation simulate it in the case of GPU-less hardware (which I think they've actually licensed and are already deploying in some later versions). If you look at Safari, on the other hand, the only real major issue with 3d transforms is hit detection can sometimes be wonky, but this isn't something that OpenGL makes particularly easy anyway. The ironic thing is that the stock Android browser is actually much better than Mobile Chrome, likely because it was written directly on top of OpenGL ES 2 from the start, whereas mobile chrome was actually a full port from the desktop. I haven't read much of the Android browser code though, so this is largely speculation.
  - hayksaakian 14y ago
    That was far more insightful than I expected, thanks. Here's to hoping that chrome mobile gets to v19 and greater asap.
prostoalex 14y ago
Facebook's API is out there. If "they built a terrible iOS app and blamed the technology", how come no one has come up with snappy fast HTML5 client against their API?
- martey 14y ago
  There are not many third-party clients for Facebook (mobile or otherwise) because Facebook's public API has several limitations that make creating and supporting such an application difficult. For example, users can change their privacy settings so that some or all of their information is inaccessible to the API.
- zizee 14y ago
  What's the business plan there? Make an app that becomes the default way to access facebook on mobile? Show ads? Facebook decides it wants in on the action and cuts you off a la twitter...
- pwf 14y ago
  They have: m.facebook.com It might not be entirely 'snappy', but it's a hell of a lot better than the installed app version. I laugh every time I go to the website and it suggests I install their app on the login page.
josteink 14y ago
[1] Anyone who brings up mobile Chrome will get a mouthful about why that's terrible as well. Personally I prefer stock browser over Chrome because I find it faster and more responsive. That said: I'll bite. What's so horrible with Chrome on Android? And I say that as someone who is interested in learning, not someone debating the correctness of your claim.

melling 14y ago

Rather than provide an academic argument as to why HTML5 apps are as good as native, it would be better to provide great examples of where it has worked. Even Steve Jobs originally thought web apps were all you needed but he was eventually convinced otherwise. In short, how about some proof by example? Lots of examples...

rodion_89 14y ago
I've always wondered why the App Store was a web app. It seems really out of place considering its job is to distribute native apps. On the other hand it has probably been the driving force to make mobile safari better.
- wahnfrieden 14y ago
  Probably so that they can make iterations on its design without requiring people to download new software updates - a huge attraction of web apps.
  - rodion_89 14y ago
    I guess my question then is, why does that hold more true for the App Store than for any of their other native apps?
    - wahnfrieden 14y ago
      Their other built-in apps don't involve as much marketing efforts inside them and don't drive post-purchase sales. I guess there is Newsreader or whatever but I haven't used it and can't comment on it.
    - mmariani 14y ago
      Because the iTunes platform is written in Java with a legacy web framework called WebObjects. Also the iTunes business unity has more characteristics in common with Amazon than Apple itself. That's why we're stuck with a thin client for the AS.
rodion_89 14y ago
> There is no question that native apps provide better UI's This is was me talking about mobile. Then I went on to explain why. So I don't think I need to provide any examples there. As for HTML5 on the desktop you can peruse the Chrome Web Store to find some good stuff. iCloud.com is actually an excellent example of HTML5 done right (for the most part).
- blub 14y ago
  Your html5 done right example fails to work on all three browsers on my phone (opera,firefox,native). Quite a performance...
  - rodion_89 14y ago
    > HTML5 on the desktop I wasn't talking about mobile. Try iCloud.com on Mac Safari, it's quite nice. Not sure what browsers Apple is targeting for this. My assumption is that the 5 major desktop browsers can host web apps of this quality if the app developer chooses to target them. Hopefully as time passes the "chooses to target them" part won't be an issue if standards-compliance is a norm.
- mmariani 14y ago
  As you may know, iCloud is written in SproutCore. If you compare the development process and programmer productivity of SC with let's say Cocoa, you'll see SC can't get near Cocoa in these aspects. It's a mess.
daleharvey 14y ago
One fairly obvious example would be that facebook still have twice as many users on their web app as their native

hayksaakian 14y ago

Oh great knower of things, inform us as to how terrible chrome mobile is

newhouseb 14y ago
Most of the artifacts in Chrome Mobile stem from the fact that the latest stable version branches from Chrome 18 at which point the chrome compositor was in somewhat of a disastrous state (things are somewhat better in Chrome 20 and up). Chrome attempted/attempts to support transforms regardless of the underlying engine (be it OpenGL ES 2.0 or skia) and as result of this ended up implementing a lot of things that would be handled by OpenGL ES natively within Chrome itself, like backface culling, clipping, layer sorting, etc. Unfortunately, most of this math was wrong and as a result many things that use css3d transforms are a flickering disaster. Instead, I think they should have interfaced entirely through OpenGL ES and let a software implementation simulate it in the case of GPU-less hardware (which I think they've actually licensed and are already deploying in some later versions). If you look at Safari, on the other hand, the only real major issue with 3d transforms is hit detection can sometimes be wonky, but this isn't something that OpenGL makes particularly easy anyway. The ironic thing is that the stock Android browser is actually much better than Mobile Chrome, likely because it was written directly on top of OpenGL ES 2 from the start, whereas mobile chrome was actually a full port from the desktop. I haven't read much of the Android browser code though, so this is largely speculation.
- hayksaakian 14y ago
  That was far more insightful than I expected, thanks. Here's to hoping that chrome mobile gets to v19 and greater asap.

prostoalex 14y ago

Facebook's API is out there. If "they built a terrible iOS app and blamed the technology", how come no one has come up with snappy fast HTML5 client against their API?

martey 14y ago
There are not many third-party clients for Facebook (mobile or otherwise) because Facebook's public API has several limitations that make creating and supporting such an application difficult. For example, users can change their privacy settings so that some or all of their information is inaccessible to the API.
zizee 14y ago
What's the business plan there? Make an app that becomes the default way to access facebook on mobile? Show ads? Facebook decides it wants in on the action and cuts you off a la twitter...
pwf 14y ago
They have: m.facebook.com It might not be entirely 'snappy', but it's a hell of a lot better than the installed app version. I laugh every time I go to the website and it suggests I install their app on the login page.

josteink 14y ago

[1] Anyone who brings up mobile Chrome will get a mouthful about why that's terrible as well. Personally I prefer stock browser over Chrome because I find it faster and more responsive. That said: I'll bite. What's so horrible with Chrome on Android? And I say that as someone who is interested in learning, not someone debating the correctness of your claim.