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I'm surprised that a significant portion of western society has any sympathy for the Palestinian side after October 7. Hamas started a war and used a bunch of

by csense 8mo ago

I'm surprised that a significant portion of western society has any sympathy for the Palestinian side after October 7. Hamas started a war and used a bunch of heinous tactics -- kidnapping and murdering a bunch of random civilians, putting bases in hospitals, stealing food aid, and so on. Israel tries to avoid casualties when they can. For example when Hamas launches rockets at Israeli civilian targets, they shoot the rockets down with the Iron Dome and shrug it off. In my view Israel would be perfectly within their rights to return rocket for rocket into Palestinian civilian targets. That the Israeli rockets would have far more devastating effect as they'd produced by a nation state with a proper MIC, not what terrorists or smugglers can jury-rig, and the defenders don't have their own Iron Dome, Palestine would by far get the worst of the exchange, is something Hamas should be thinking of before they go around launching rockets at other people's civilian territory. That Israel doesn't return rocket for rocket in this way tells me Israel is fighting with a significantly higher amount of restraint and morality than their opponent, and I'm confused as to how many otherwise intelligent people seem to feel otherwise. I feel sorry for the civilians caught in the middle, but in my view, almost all the moral responsibility for the bad stuff happening to Palestine falls on Hamas. Hamas is always going around deliberately committing atrocities, Israel is often trying to show restraint while still maintaining reasonable military effectiveness against an enemy who likes using human shields.

mfru 8mo ago
"Israel tries to avoid casualties when they can." Provably false: 2018 Great March of return. Peaceful protest against the occupatioon and for the Palestinian right to return. People got show down by snipers who also (until this day) shot at kids and medics. Edit: Also the "mowing the lawn" doctrine
ThePowerOfFuet 8mo ago
>Israel is fighting with a significantly higher amount of restraint and morality than their opponent Gaza would not be starving were this the case, and you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting otherwise.
- wqaatwt 8mo ago
  Please don’t be absurd.. or are you one of the people pretending that the October 7th attacks didn’t happen or that the victims somehow deserved it? What Israel ended up doing in Gaza ended up being extremely horrible. But what options did they really have? Not doing anything would have been the same(or worse) than the US ignoring 9/11… Hamas on the other hand had the option to stop the war at anytime they wanted, the chose not to.
  - defrost 8mo ago
    > But what options did they really have? Not kick a dog for decades upon decades and act suprised when it bit back? It's been a shitty situation all round, since the fall of Beersheba if not before, but its a difficult ask to want all to believe October 7th came out of nowhere.
  - actionfromafar 8mo ago
    If I had to pick a single thing differently (I have many) Isreal should have not only ”allowed in” (which they didn’t ) food and water but actively driven in huge amounts of it.
  - zaphirplane 8mo ago
    Not kill children is the start , then not kill the innocent and then move to the civilized world conduct. Fairly low bar to meet.
    - wqaatwt 8mo ago
      So just ignore the atrocities Hamas/male Gazans committed and move on? Not exactly realistic?
      - zaphirplane 8mo ago
        they are not synonymous as you’d like to make us believe, just cant be a homogeneous group. Yes I think countries shouldn’t kill innocent people, you’d think people that experienced a genocide wouldn’t commit genocide so easily
xboxnolifes 8mo ago
History did not begin October 7th, 2023. We are capable of looking at prior events to see that the story is not so clear cut.
- mhb 8mo ago
  When are you thinking history began? 1948?
  - C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 8mo ago
    For the part of the history relevant to the topic, you have to go back to at least November 2, 1917 [1]. From the same page: "1901 the Sublime Porte (the Ottoman central government) gave Jews the same rights as Arabs to buy land in Palestine and the percentage of Jews in the population rose to 7% by 1914" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
Paradigma11 8mo ago
That does nothing to explain Israels handling of the West Bank or Jerusalem. Personally I dont care for both sides. Also any resources and attention on this conflict is pretty much wasted and could save so many more lives in other conflict zones that nobody cares about.
direwolf20 8mo ago
Was there any Israeli history before October 7 that might explain any of that?

by csense 8mo ago

mfru 8mo ago

"Israel tries to avoid casualties when they can." Provably false: 2018 Great March of return. Peaceful protest against the occupatioon and for the Palestinian right to return. People got show down by snipers who also (until this day) shot at kids and medics. Edit: Also the "mowing the lawn" doctrine

ThePowerOfFuet 8mo ago

>Israel is fighting with a significantly higher amount of restraint and morality than their opponent Gaza would not be starving were this the case, and you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting otherwise.

wqaatwt 8mo ago
Please don’t be absurd.. or are you one of the people pretending that the October 7th attacks didn’t happen or that the victims somehow deserved it? What Israel ended up doing in Gaza ended up being extremely horrible. But what options did they really have? Not doing anything would have been the same(or worse) than the US ignoring 9/11… Hamas on the other hand had the option to stop the war at anytime they wanted, the chose not to.
- defrost 8mo ago
  > But what options did they really have? Not kick a dog for decades upon decades and act suprised when it bit back? It's been a shitty situation all round, since the fall of Beersheba if not before, but its a difficult ask to want all to believe October 7th came out of nowhere.
- actionfromafar 8mo ago
  If I had to pick a single thing differently (I have many) Isreal should have not only ”allowed in” (which they didn’t ) food and water but actively driven in huge amounts of it.
- zaphirplane 8mo ago
  Not kill children is the start , then not kill the innocent and then move to the civilized world conduct. Fairly low bar to meet.
  - wqaatwt 8mo ago
    So just ignore the atrocities Hamas/male Gazans committed and move on? Not exactly realistic?
    - zaphirplane 8mo ago
      they are not synonymous as you’d like to make us believe, just cant be a homogeneous group. Yes I think countries shouldn’t kill innocent people, you’d think people that experienced a genocide wouldn’t commit genocide so easily

xboxnolifes 8mo ago

History did not begin October 7th, 2023. We are capable of looking at prior events to see that the story is not so clear cut.

mhb 8mo ago
When are you thinking history began? 1948?
- C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 8mo ago
  For the part of the history relevant to the topic, you have to go back to at least November 2, 1917 [1]. From the same page: "1901 the Sublime Porte (the Ottoman central government) gave Jews the same rights as Arabs to buy land in Palestine and the percentage of Jews in the population rose to 7% by 1914" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

Paradigma11 8mo ago

That does nothing to explain Israels handling of the West Bank or Jerusalem. Personally I dont care for both sides. Also any resources and attention on this conflict is pretty much wasted and could save so many more lives in other conflict zones that nobody cares about.

direwolf20 8mo ago

Was there any Israeli history before October 7 that might explain any of that?