4 ms·

There's a big difference between seeing an immigration raid where you know whoever gets picked up is going to have access to a lawyer, be subject to proper due

There's a big difference between seeing an immigration raid where you know whoever gets picked up is going to have access to a lawyer, be subject to proper due process, and at worst be sent back to their home country. We knew - or at least believed - that if they detained someone who was a citizen, that person would be released. Now, when we see ICE grabbing someone, we know that person probably won't have access to legal representation even if they are here legally, even if they're a citizen. We know they might be sent to a concentration camp in a foreign country they aren't from, and we know they might even get murdered in the street. It's a very different dynamic.

hubber 9mo ago
[flagged]
- estearum 9mo ago
  Huh? We have no reason to believe e.g. Kilmar Abrego Garcia was non-compliant in any way with anything, and he was sent to a foreign torture prison without access to a lawyer, without being charged with a crime, without being afforded basic rights that everyone (citizen or not) has under the US Constitution. We have numerous examples of people who have followed all legal procedures and have legal status in the US who were likewise denied basic Constitutional protections. Here are a few relevant sources: https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2025-04/FIRE%20Ozturk%20Filed%20Amicus.pdf https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2025-04/FIRE%20Ozt... https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salvador-came-us-legally-never-violated-immigration-law https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salva...
- deeg 9mo ago
  If you aren't afraid you must be white. ICE has been arresting citizens because they fit racial profiles: https://apnews.com/article/minnesota-immigration-us-citizen-detained-hmong-d009590a491c0c8243ef21ef24db7182 https://apnews.com/article/minnesota-immigration-us-citizen-...
- subdude 9mo ago
  "There are tens of millions of people in the country illegally. They must go." Why?
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
- throw0101c 9mo ago
  > And I'll celebrate with my lawyer if it does. LOL. Why do you assume you'll get a hearing? As Timothy Snyder (an historian of Central and Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, and the Holocaust) observed last year: > If you accept that non-citizens have no right to due process, you are accepting that citizens have no right to due process. All the government has to do is claim that you are not a citizen; without due process you have no chance to prove the contrary. * https://xcancel.com/TimothyDSnyder/status/1904296565562343430#m https://xcancel.com/TimothyDSnyder/status/190429656556234343...
  - estearum 9mo ago
    It's truly unbelievable how many allegedly intelligent people fail to grasp this basic corollary of their beliefs. "Well I'll get due process because I just need to say I'm a citizen!" Bro... to whom do you say that? When? In what forum? That is literally the entire point of contention!
  - hubber 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - estearum 9mo ago
      The source of this particular quote is irrelevant, how about you engage with the simple logical structure being put in front of you?
      - hubber 9mo ago
        [flagged]
- text0404 9mo ago
  Exactly. Comply with the armed men and you won't die. Compliance is required for a healthy society. Just comply and you won't be hurt. Compliance is required for a functioning society. Comply and purge society of undesirables. Even if your rights are violated, comply or you will be hurt. Remember America's slogans: land of the free, home of the brave if you comply with the masked mens' orders. Remember the hacker ethos: compliance with the government is required for your safety. Otherwise, you are engaging in domestic terrorism and will be dealt with swiftly by anonymous agents of the state.
  - hubber 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - text0404 9mo ago
      Truly ridiculous. I briefly wondered if you actually believe this rhetoric, but then I saw your three-day-old account. Not going to debate with someone who doesn't have the courage to stand behind their convictions. Your account is a throwaway and only exists to launder white supremacist talking points. Best of luck with your new American government, we all know it ended well for the leaders of Italy and Germany.
      - hubber 9mo ago
        [flagged]
      - deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]
    - subdude 9mo ago
      The only lunatics in this scenario are the ones executing people in the street and dragging children out of their homes and into concentration camps as well as the people who think that's all reasonable. It's entirely reasonable, and right, to resist them. "They are actively committing a crime against the citizens of the US." What crime? You are confused if you think being an undocumented immigrant is a crime in it of itself. It's not, despite the right's attempts to paint them as "illegal." And, even if it were a crime, that doesn't suddenly make it "evil" or something that victimizes the "citizens of the US." The law is not the arbiter of good and evil, and very often it's on the side of evil. Miscegenation was a crime. Sodomy was a crime. Those acts were no more evil then than they are now.

hubber 9mo ago

[flagged]

estearum 9mo ago
Huh? We have no reason to believe e.g. Kilmar Abrego Garcia was non-compliant in any way with anything, and he was sent to a foreign torture prison without access to a lawyer, without being charged with a crime, without being afforded basic rights that everyone (citizen or not) has under the US Constitution. We have numerous examples of people who have followed all legal procedures and have legal status in the US who were likewise denied basic Constitutional protections. Here are a few relevant sources: https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2025-04/FIRE%20Ozturk%20Filed%20Amicus.pdf https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2025-04/FIRE%20Ozt... https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salvador-came-us-legally-never-violated-immigration-law https://www.cato.org/blog/50-venezuelans-imprisoned-el-salva...
deeg 9mo ago
If you aren't afraid you must be white. ICE has been arresting citizens because they fit racial profiles: https://apnews.com/article/minnesota-immigration-us-citizen-detained-hmong-d009590a491c0c8243ef21ef24db7182 https://apnews.com/article/minnesota-immigration-us-citizen-...
subdude 9mo ago
"There are tens of millions of people in the country illegally. They must go." Why?
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
throw0101c 9mo ago
> And I'll celebrate with my lawyer if it does. LOL. Why do you assume you'll get a hearing? As Timothy Snyder (an historian of Central and Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, and the Holocaust) observed last year: > If you accept that non-citizens have no right to due process, you are accepting that citizens have no right to due process. All the government has to do is claim that you are not a citizen; without due process you have no chance to prove the contrary. * https://xcancel.com/TimothyDSnyder/status/1904296565562343430#m https://xcancel.com/TimothyDSnyder/status/190429656556234343...
- estearum 9mo ago
  It's truly unbelievable how many allegedly intelligent people fail to grasp this basic corollary of their beliefs. "Well I'll get due process because I just need to say I'm a citizen!" Bro... to whom do you say that? When? In what forum? That is literally the entire point of contention!
- hubber 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - estearum 9mo ago
    The source of this particular quote is irrelevant, how about you engage with the simple logical structure being put in front of you?
    - hubber 9mo ago
      [flagged]
text0404 9mo ago
Exactly. Comply with the armed men and you won't die. Compliance is required for a healthy society. Just comply and you won't be hurt. Compliance is required for a functioning society. Comply and purge society of undesirables. Even if your rights are violated, comply or you will be hurt. Remember America's slogans: land of the free, home of the brave if you comply with the masked mens' orders. Remember the hacker ethos: compliance with the government is required for your safety. Otherwise, you are engaging in domestic terrorism and will be dealt with swiftly by anonymous agents of the state.
- hubber 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - text0404 9mo ago
    Truly ridiculous. I briefly wondered if you actually believe this rhetoric, but then I saw your three-day-old account. Not going to debate with someone who doesn't have the courage to stand behind their convictions. Your account is a throwaway and only exists to launder white supremacist talking points. Best of luck with your new American government, we all know it ended well for the leaders of Italy and Germany.
    - hubber 9mo ago
      [flagged]
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
  - subdude 9mo ago
    The only lunatics in this scenario are the ones executing people in the street and dragging children out of their homes and into concentration camps as well as the people who think that's all reasonable. It's entirely reasonable, and right, to resist them. "They are actively committing a crime against the citizens of the US." What crime? You are confused if you think being an undocumented immigrant is a crime in it of itself. It's not, despite the right's attempts to paint them as "illegal." And, even if it were a crime, that doesn't suddenly make it "evil" or something that victimizes the "citizens of the US." The law is not the arbiter of good and evil, and very often it's on the side of evil. Miscegenation was a crime. Sodomy was a crime. Those acts were no more evil then than they are now.