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Why do people need to know the under the hood stuff. As I mentioned in my other comment, we have the concept of division of labour. Also, programming and machi

Why do people need to know the under the hood stuff. As I mentioned in my other comment, we have the concept of division of labour. Also, programming and machine learning will increasingly be most of what people's job description. In fact, in my extremest viewpoint, I think even programming is on it's way out and machine learning will the majority of people's work. Or put more simply, giving computers a few examples. Already, with things like the Baxter robot from Rethink Robotics, and mechanical turk from amazon, we're seeing what the future of work will be like. The computers will just figure out things extrapolating from the choices we make.

Thrymr 14y ago
I actually agree with you that programming may be on its way out for the majority of people. I can't agree with sweeping away all of mathematics, including arithmetic and algebra, as "under the hood stuff" for K-12 students.
- marshallp 14y ago
  Algebra (the art of rearranging equations) is not necessary anymore (you just need to know how to realize how things can be quantified - the naming of variables of computer programming). Arithmetic beyond use of calculator is useless. Maths as traditionally taught is the leading cause of high school dropouts rates and probably a lot more damage than tahat (people who might have been scientists turning to arts instead).
  - lutusp 14y ago
    > Algebra (the art of rearranging equations) is not necessary anymore ... False, and false. * As to the first, in common use, algebra is the abstraction of mathematical values and operations. If we can abstract a value to a symbol, we then can operate on the symbol rather than the value, greatly increasing the generality of mathematical ideas. Which operation is more useful: sqrt(2) or sqrt(x)? Another example -- which is more useful: D(7^n) = 7^n * log(7) or D(x^n) = n * x^(n-1)? (The first can only be applied to 7, the second can be applied to any values of x and/or n.) * As to the second, algebra is much more useful now than it was 100 years ago. Those who don't learn algebra are inviting politicians to lie to them, which they will certainly do if given a chance. > Maths as traditionally taught is the leading cause of high school dropouts rates ... This confuses cause and effect. If we drop math education to prevent dropouts, we will have implicit dropouts (people who drop out but without physically leaving) instead of explicit ones. > ... people who might have been scientists turning to arts instead ... One's preference for art over science has deeper roots than a lack of comprehension of mathematics. And again, it confuses cause and effect.
    - marshallp 14y ago
      I'll just have to disagree with you there. Your definition of algebra (beyond the naming of symbols, or variables in programming parlance) is not useful to most people. Where are they going to apply log or sqrt in everday life or even equations as you outlined (in my viewpoint, machine learning will automagically figure out equations or they will be apps on your smartphone). I think people would be much better served implicitly dropping out than explicitly. People's identity has more to do with performance than innate ability. Many people are mistakenly led to believe science is about symbolic equation rearrangement on paper (high school maths) + rote memorization and so choose arts instead. For many people, but not all, this is the reason why they don't pursue science careers. If they understood it was much more about teamwork and physical setting up and running equipment/software and thinking creatively, I'm certain we'd see different choices made.
      - lutusp 14y ago
        > I'll just have to disagree with you there. But you aren't disagreeing, you're trying to redefine algebra based on personal preferences, in other words, you're arguing for the ascendancy of postmodernism (the idea that there are no shared truths, that everything is a matter of opinion and outlook). The problem with arguing from a postmodern perspective is that the argument instantly self-destructs (it applies first to itself, which means if you're right, then I have the right to ignore you). The essential foundation of dialogue is consensus, shared ideas, and shared word definitions. Without those, there's no possibility for dialogue. > Your definition of algebra (beyond the naming of symbols, or variables in programming parlance) is not useful to most people. Utility is not the basis on which words are defined. Words mean what they mean, how we feel about those meanings is irrelevant. > I think people would be much better served implicitly dropping out than explicitly. So those who are qualified to be in school can be surrounded by those who aren't? > If they understood it [science] was much more about teamwork and physical setting up and running equipment/software and thinking creatively ... That's not what science is about, unless plumbing is about wrenches. You're confusing the practice of science with the idea of science.
        14y ago

Thrymr 14y ago

I actually agree with you that programming may be on its way out for the majority of people. I can't agree with sweeping away all of mathematics, including arithmetic and algebra, as "under the hood stuff" for K-12 students.

marshallp 14y ago
Algebra (the art of rearranging equations) is not necessary anymore (you just need to know how to realize how things can be quantified - the naming of variables of computer programming). Arithmetic beyond use of calculator is useless. Maths as traditionally taught is the leading cause of high school dropouts rates and probably a lot more damage than tahat (people who might have been scientists turning to arts instead).
- lutusp 14y ago
  > Algebra (the art of rearranging equations) is not necessary anymore ... False, and false. * As to the first, in common use, algebra is the abstraction of mathematical values and operations. If we can abstract a value to a symbol, we then can operate on the symbol rather than the value, greatly increasing the generality of mathematical ideas. Which operation is more useful: sqrt(2) or sqrt(x)? Another example -- which is more useful: D(7^n) = 7^n * log(7) or D(x^n) = n * x^(n-1)? (The first can only be applied to 7, the second can be applied to any values of x and/or n.) * As to the second, algebra is much more useful now than it was 100 years ago. Those who don't learn algebra are inviting politicians to lie to them, which they will certainly do if given a chance. > Maths as traditionally taught is the leading cause of high school dropouts rates ... This confuses cause and effect. If we drop math education to prevent dropouts, we will have implicit dropouts (people who drop out but without physically leaving) instead of explicit ones. > ... people who might have been scientists turning to arts instead ... One's preference for art over science has deeper roots than a lack of comprehension of mathematics. And again, it confuses cause and effect.
  - marshallp 14y ago
    I'll just have to disagree with you there. Your definition of algebra (beyond the naming of symbols, or variables in programming parlance) is not useful to most people. Where are they going to apply log or sqrt in everday life or even equations as you outlined (in my viewpoint, machine learning will automagically figure out equations or they will be apps on your smartphone). I think people would be much better served implicitly dropping out than explicitly. People's identity has more to do with performance than innate ability. Many people are mistakenly led to believe science is about symbolic equation rearrangement on paper (high school maths) + rote memorization and so choose arts instead. For many people, but not all, this is the reason why they don't pursue science careers. If they understood it was much more about teamwork and physical setting up and running equipment/software and thinking creatively, I'm certain we'd see different choices made.
    - lutusp 14y ago
      > I'll just have to disagree with you there. But you aren't disagreeing, you're trying to redefine algebra based on personal preferences, in other words, you're arguing for the ascendancy of postmodernism (the idea that there are no shared truths, that everything is a matter of opinion and outlook). The problem with arguing from a postmodern perspective is that the argument instantly self-destructs (it applies first to itself, which means if you're right, then I have the right to ignore you). The essential foundation of dialogue is consensus, shared ideas, and shared word definitions. Without those, there's no possibility for dialogue. > Your definition of algebra (beyond the naming of symbols, or variables in programming parlance) is not useful to most people. Utility is not the basis on which words are defined. Words mean what they mean, how we feel about those meanings is irrelevant. > I think people would be much better served implicitly dropping out than explicitly. So those who are qualified to be in school can be surrounded by those who aren't? > If they understood it [science] was much more about teamwork and physical setting up and running equipment/software and thinking creatively ... That's not what science is about, unless plumbing is about wrenches. You're confusing the practice of science with the idea of science.
      - 14y ago