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I will present a somewhat controversial point of view here. The problem with math education lies as much with teachers as it does with students. If you have st

by bearmf 14y ago

I will present a somewhat controversial point of view here. The problem with math education lies as much with teachers as it does with students. If you have students that cannot understand basic formulas and memorize them, you are not going to teach them abstract concepts. Concrete math is much easier than abstract math for the vast majority of people. I cannot really believe the stories about people who are supposedly talented at math but are not engaged enough by the school curriculum and consequently fail at the tests. School level math is very easy for anyone with some aptitude for math. Anyone who fails it will probably have even greater difficulties with abstract concepts behind it. That gifted students are not stimulated enough is the real problem. Math classes for gifted children is probably the only solution. Something like Stuyvesant High in New York City but on a wider scale. As for better math education in Singapore and Taiwan, well, they do have better students than most US public schools. Both genetics and culture play a role here. Asian people have both higher average IQs and higher average conscientiousness. Their teachers are able to teach math at a higher level. US could surely learn from them, but not every school could use their techniques.

guylhem 14y ago
I disagree. The current perspective of IQ and ethnicities show that while there might be slight differences, they are dwarfed by the differences in the education process. If you want another example besides Singapore, look at french math textbook for highschool students - with nth derivatives, etc. Here's the first link googles gives me - something that a finishing highschool student, around 17 years old, is expected to do if he is enrolled in a "scientific" curriculum. (basically there are 4 curriculums - scientific, economic, literary (humanities), technical (vocational)) http://maths54.free.fr/terminal/ch7_der_fonct_comp/cours_chap7.pdf http://maths54.free.fr/terminal/ch7_der_fonct_comp/cours_cha...
- bearmf 14y ago
  I do not want to discuss race/national IQ differences, this is a sensitive topic and does not really belong here. I am quite sure individual IQ differences are not controversial though and cannot be "dwarfed" by good educational processes. The French textbook looks reasonably rigorous but as you say it is intended for "scientific" students. Thats basically what I was talking about in my post - you need to select for gifted students before moving on to complex math (not that derivatives are particularly hard if you do not have to prove theorems). In US I believe differential calculus belongs to AP Calculus high school classes. No idea about their level but content on the internet looks similar, maybe less rigorous.
  - guylhem 14y ago
    FWI, I do not believe in IQ. The evolution of scores alone makes me think there is a confounding variable. Students should just study what they can get money from and they are interested in. In France, there are 4 curriculum of approximately similar sizes - at least when I did my studies. There is no IQ selection. There is no selection either based on being "gifted" or not - you just get a curriculum matching the job you said you were the most interested in, if you basic grades are enough (i.e. if you persistently had below average grades in math, you might not be enrolled in a scientific curriculum) "scientific" students makes 25% of the students - I'm not sure it can be compared to the situation in the US unless 25% of the students go in AP classes. [The other curricumulum also have decent math, only slightly less theoretical or more into specific domains, such as arithmetic or geometric progression mathematics (for economy and some BTS vocational studies)] Edit : Enrollment trends are shown in http://quanti.hypotheses.org/631/ http://quanti.hypotheses.org/631/ red is humanities blue is economics green is scientific [apparently vocational studies are gaining ground, and humanities are declining, a good thing considering the job market]
    - lutusp 14y ago
      > FWI, I do not believe in IQ. As stated, this is a meaningless claim. Do you mean you don't believe in the accuracy or social value of of IQ testing, or don't believe that IQ exists as a measurable quantity, or don't believe in the practice of ranking people based on intelligence?
      - guylhem 14y ago
        Sorry, I should be more precise. First, I don't believe that IQ exist as a measurable quantity - IQ is too many things thrown together in a single bad. Tests group together various things which may be handled by different subsystems in the brain. If there is something called IQ, it's an aggregate. Anyway, if there was such a unique quantity, actual data shows a progression of IQ scores in time - therefore if the tests are considered accurate and unbiased, it must be a "quantity" that can evolve based on the society a person lives it. It should then be considered not as a value, but as a function depending on a variable called society. I do not know if studies have tried to measure the accuracy of repetitive measurement in low education adults enrolled in a learning program. If there are such studies and if they show inconsistent result (ie any change of IQ), then IQ should be considered as a function of 2 variables : f(society, personal experience). Now, even if we consider that at a time t it could be accurately measured and that societal bias could be removed, considering how other qualities (such as determination, work ethic, consistency, creativity, competitiveness...) influence the outcome of any human activity, it seems foolish to rank people based on just one quality - especially if we don't know the other values, and their individual ponderation in the end result. This ponderation could also be different depending on the activity, and IQ provide an absolute advantage in some activities (rhetoric?), but say determination would give an absolute advantage in other activities (startups?). I prefer to say I "don't believe in IQ" because it's easier to say that way than giving this long version.

by bearmf 14y ago

guylhem 14y ago

I disagree. The current perspective of IQ and ethnicities show that while there might be slight differences, they are dwarfed by the differences in the education process. If you want another example besides Singapore, look at french math textbook for highschool students - with nth derivatives, etc. Here's the first link googles gives me - something that a finishing highschool student, around 17 years old, is expected to do if he is enrolled in a "scientific" curriculum. (basically there are 4 curriculums - scientific, economic, literary (humanities), technical (vocational)) http://maths54.free.fr/terminal/ch7_der_fonct_comp/cours_chap7.pdf http://maths54.free.fr/terminal/ch7_der_fonct_comp/cours_cha...

bearmf 14y ago
I do not want to discuss race/national IQ differences, this is a sensitive topic and does not really belong here. I am quite sure individual IQ differences are not controversial though and cannot be "dwarfed" by good educational processes. The French textbook looks reasonably rigorous but as you say it is intended for "scientific" students. Thats basically what I was talking about in my post - you need to select for gifted students before moving on to complex math (not that derivatives are particularly hard if you do not have to prove theorems). In US I believe differential calculus belongs to AP Calculus high school classes. No idea about their level but content on the internet looks similar, maybe less rigorous.
- guylhem 14y ago
  FWI, I do not believe in IQ. The evolution of scores alone makes me think there is a confounding variable. Students should just study what they can get money from and they are interested in. In France, there are 4 curriculum of approximately similar sizes - at least when I did my studies. There is no IQ selection. There is no selection either based on being "gifted" or not - you just get a curriculum matching the job you said you were the most interested in, if you basic grades are enough (i.e. if you persistently had below average grades in math, you might not be enrolled in a scientific curriculum) "scientific" students makes 25% of the students - I'm not sure it can be compared to the situation in the US unless 25% of the students go in AP classes. [The other curricumulum also have decent math, only slightly less theoretical or more into specific domains, such as arithmetic or geometric progression mathematics (for economy and some BTS vocational studies)] Edit : Enrollment trends are shown in http://quanti.hypotheses.org/631/ http://quanti.hypotheses.org/631/ red is humanities blue is economics green is scientific [apparently vocational studies are gaining ground, and humanities are declining, a good thing considering the job market]
  - lutusp 14y ago
    > FWI, I do not believe in IQ. As stated, this is a meaningless claim. Do you mean you don't believe in the accuracy or social value of of IQ testing, or don't believe that IQ exists as a measurable quantity, or don't believe in the practice of ranking people based on intelligence?
    - guylhem 14y ago
      Sorry, I should be more precise. First, I don't believe that IQ exist as a measurable quantity - IQ is too many things thrown together in a single bad. Tests group together various things which may be handled by different subsystems in the brain. If there is something called IQ, it's an aggregate. Anyway, if there was such a unique quantity, actual data shows a progression of IQ scores in time - therefore if the tests are considered accurate and unbiased, it must be a "quantity" that can evolve based on the society a person lives it. It should then be considered not as a value, but as a function depending on a variable called society. I do not know if studies have tried to measure the accuracy of repetitive measurement in low education adults enrolled in a learning program. If there are such studies and if they show inconsistent result (ie any change of IQ), then IQ should be considered as a function of 2 variables : f(society, personal experience). Now, even if we consider that at a time t it could be accurately measured and that societal bias could be removed, considering how other qualities (such as determination, work ethic, consistency, creativity, competitiveness...) influence the outcome of any human activity, it seems foolish to rank people based on just one quality - especially if we don't know the other values, and their individual ponderation in the end result. This ponderation could also be different depending on the activity, and IQ provide an absolute advantage in some activities (rhetoric?), but say determination would give an absolute advantage in other activities (startups?). I prefer to say I "don't believe in IQ" because it's easier to say that way than giving this long version.