5 ms·

> UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous mess I thought you were talking about Windows there. There are 4 (5?) different UI paradigm

by Orygin 8mo ago

> UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous mess I thought you were talking about Windows there. There are 4 (5?) different UI paradigms within Windows, and doing one thing sometimes requires you to interact with each of them. At least on Linux, with GTK/KDE, you can pick a camp and have a somewhat consistent experience, with a few outliers. Plus many apps now just use CSD and fully integrate their designs to the window, so it's hopeless to have every window styling be consistent. I never had to mind X vs Wayland when starting user applications tho.

reddalo 8mo ago
>many apps now just use CSD If there's something I hate about Linux, it's CSD (Client-Side Decorations, in case people don't know what it is). If I wanted all my apps to look different from each other, I'd use macOS. I want a clean desktop environment, with predictable window frames that are customizable and they all look the same. CSD destroys that.
- BizarroLand 8mo ago
  Conversely, I don't want all of my apps to look identical to each other. I want to be able to tell with a submoment of a glance what app I am working on or looking for without having to cognitively engage to locate it, breaking my state of flow in the process.
  - int_19h 8mo ago
    That's what the title bar is for?
  - uKVZe85V 8mo ago
    You're defeating your own point. CSD in practice breaks a basic feature of the desktop : knowing at first glance which of the windows will receive whatever you type on the keyboard. For eons the standard was: the only one with the title bar showing the theme accent color. That is consistent, predictable, keeps the user in the flow. With CSD each app does whatever inconsistent thing they can fancy. You type and oops deleted something in the wrong window. Alas now even many default SSD setups fail at this (selected and non-selected windows look pretty much the same) and keyboard-first workflow is much hindered.
- noisem4ker 8mo ago
  Linux doesn't mean GNOME. KDE favors server-side decorations.
  - reddalo 8mo ago
    I know, in fact I'm using Linux Mint. The problem is that sometimes you need to use a GNOME app that looks completely out of place.
- conorbergin 8mo ago
  Having no CSD at all is unacceptable on small screens IMHO, far too much real estate is taken up by a title bar, you can be competitive with SSD by making them really thin, but then they are harder to click on and impossible with touch input. At the moment I have firefox setup with CSD and vertical tabs, only 7% of my vertical real estate is taken up by bars (inc. Gnome), which is pretty good for something that supports this many niceties.
- Orygin 8mo ago
  I mean, most apps I use daily, no matter the OS, have CSD. Teams, Spotify, Slack, Firefox, Postman, IntelliJ etc... Doesn't matter which OS they all have different styles. I can understand it's not liked by everyone, but that ship has sailed and no "big" app will use SSD anymore.
wackget 8mo ago
If we're talking about mass adoption of Linux then there really has to be no concept of even "picking a camp". The vast majority of users - even techy people - will not understand what a window manager is, never mind be capable of choosing one. Yes, there are many UI implementations in Windows but they are almost totally transparent to the user (no pun intended), and they can all run on the same system at once.
- Joe_Cool 8mo ago
  Hard disagree. You can run the same programs on any DE or Window Manager or even without one (on pure X11 for example). That's not a hurdle it's a feature. Users who don't know about the feature can just use a pre-configured system like Mint Cinnamon and never know about any of these things.
  - andai 8mo ago
    Yeah I wanted to say, for people who don't care, there's Linux Mint. (I used to spend all my time tinkering with the DE, now I prefer to spend zero!) Except even with Linux Mint you have to choose which one ;)
  - iwanttocomment 8mo ago
    Nope. Linux user for decades, but headless since the early aughts. Decided to dip my toes back into the desktop space with Mint Cinnamon. I can mirror or run lots of phone apps on Windows or macOS, but ironically, not Linux. I decide to run an Android emulator so I can use some phone-only apps. I read up on reviews, then download and install Waydroid as the top contender. Does Waydroid work? No. It fails silently launching from the shortcut after the install. Run it from the command line, and, nope, it's a window manager issue. Mint Cinnamon uses X11, not Wayland, and Waydroid apparently needs... Wayland support. OK, I log out, log into Mint with Wayland support, then re-launch Waydroid. My screen goes into a fugue state where it randomly alternates between black and the desktop. Try a variety of things, and I guess this is just how it is. Google and try any number of fixes, end up giving up. Yes, that's my old pal Linux on the Desktop. Older, faster and wiser, but still flaky in precisely the same ways.

by Orygin 8mo ago

reddalo 8mo ago

>many apps now just use CSD If there's something I hate about Linux, it's CSD (Client-Side Decorations, in case people don't know what it is). If I wanted all my apps to look different from each other, I'd use macOS. I want a clean desktop environment, with predictable window frames that are customizable and they all look the same. CSD destroys that.

BizarroLand 8mo ago
Conversely, I don't want all of my apps to look identical to each other. I want to be able to tell with a submoment of a glance what app I am working on or looking for without having to cognitively engage to locate it, breaking my state of flow in the process.
- int_19h 8mo ago
  That's what the title bar is for?
- uKVZe85V 8mo ago
  You're defeating your own point. CSD in practice breaks a basic feature of the desktop : knowing at first glance which of the windows will receive whatever you type on the keyboard. For eons the standard was: the only one with the title bar showing the theme accent color. That is consistent, predictable, keeps the user in the flow. With CSD each app does whatever inconsistent thing they can fancy. You type and oops deleted something in the wrong window. Alas now even many default SSD setups fail at this (selected and non-selected windows look pretty much the same) and keyboard-first workflow is much hindered.
noisem4ker 8mo ago
Linux doesn't mean GNOME. KDE favors server-side decorations.
- reddalo 8mo ago
  I know, in fact I'm using Linux Mint. The problem is that sometimes you need to use a GNOME app that looks completely out of place.
conorbergin 8mo ago
Having no CSD at all is unacceptable on small screens IMHO, far too much real estate is taken up by a title bar, you can be competitive with SSD by making them really thin, but then they are harder to click on and impossible with touch input. At the moment I have firefox setup with CSD and vertical tabs, only 7% of my vertical real estate is taken up by bars (inc. Gnome), which is pretty good for something that supports this many niceties.
Orygin 8mo ago
I mean, most apps I use daily, no matter the OS, have CSD. Teams, Spotify, Slack, Firefox, Postman, IntelliJ etc... Doesn't matter which OS they all have different styles. I can understand it's not liked by everyone, but that ship has sailed and no "big" app will use SSD anymore.

wackget 8mo ago

If we're talking about mass adoption of Linux then there really has to be no concept of even "picking a camp". The vast majority of users - even techy people - will not understand what a window manager is, never mind be capable of choosing one. Yes, there are many UI implementations in Windows but they are almost totally transparent to the user (no pun intended), and they can all run on the same system at once.

Joe_Cool 8mo ago
Hard disagree. You can run the same programs on any DE or Window Manager or even without one (on pure X11 for example). That's not a hurdle it's a feature. Users who don't know about the feature can just use a pre-configured system like Mint Cinnamon and never know about any of these things.
- andai 8mo ago
  Yeah I wanted to say, for people who don't care, there's Linux Mint. (I used to spend all my time tinkering with the DE, now I prefer to spend zero!) Except even with Linux Mint you have to choose which one ;)
- iwanttocomment 8mo ago
  Nope. Linux user for decades, but headless since the early aughts. Decided to dip my toes back into the desktop space with Mint Cinnamon. I can mirror or run lots of phone apps on Windows or macOS, but ironically, not Linux. I decide to run an Android emulator so I can use some phone-only apps. I read up on reviews, then download and install Waydroid as the top contender. Does Waydroid work? No. It fails silently launching from the shortcut after the install. Run it from the command line, and, nope, it's a window manager issue. Mint Cinnamon uses X11, not Wayland, and Waydroid apparently needs... Wayland support. OK, I log out, log into Mint with Wayland support, then re-launch Waydroid. My screen goes into a fugue state where it randomly alternates between black and the desktop. Try a variety of things, and I guess this is just how it is. Google and try any number of fixes, end up giving up. Yes, that's my old pal Linux on the Desktop. Older, faster and wiser, but still flaky in precisely the same ways.