3 ms·

What I find the most interesting (or rather sad) here, is that this kind of feels like a legitimate case for a technological patent because this guy invented th

What I find the most interesting (or rather sad) here, is that this kind of feels like a legitimate case for a technological patent because this guy invented the electronics, and foresaw a distribution mechanism just like iTunes, even some kind of DRM. And just here the patent system fails, because he wasn't able to pay the 60.000 pounds to extend the worldwide patents. Wasn't the patent system originally devised for protecting businesses like his? Small companies trying to be innovative and trying to compete with the big guys. This guy seems like a role model of what the patent system was designed for, and just (or even) there it fails. Also, 8mb in 1984 sounds like a lot of memory. I wonder what storage mechanism / technology he used.

eternalban 14y ago
I filed a provisional patent app in '96 for a "presence protocol" based decentralized personal networking governed by a social model. I ran into the same precise issue and must sheepishly admit permitted it to get the better of me and abandoned it. Watching the likes of FB, G+ et al these past few years has been a somewhat bitter experience. :) I guess the silver lining is that I am in possession of government stamped receipt confirming prior art in this domain.
- monochromatic 14y ago
  ... unpublished prior art.
  - eternalban 14y ago
    USPTO doesn't count? I've been wondering about that. What do you suggest? Scan it and publish it?
    - monochromatic 14y ago
      See 35 U.S.C. 102.
      - eternalban 14y ago
        Thanks for the link. Looks like PPA's don't count. C'est la vie.
- tisme 14y ago
  I think this argues rather strongly against patents. After all, if you didn't publish it and someone else came up with it independently several times over then clearly that counts as anecdotal support for ideas having a way of re-surfacing many times until the time is ripe. The fact that you thought of it first - assuming you did, because there may be many more people like you, some of those may have had the idea even earlier - should not give you a right to a slice of someone else's pie.
  - eternalban 14y ago
    (They haven't fully caught up with me yet.) Further note I have no interest in taking a slice of anyone's pie. If I did, I would not be discussing this matter here with you; I would have taken my lawyer's advice. The only (hypothetical) interest at this point would have been to defend against a patent in this domain.
LinaLauneBaer 14y ago
I talked to a lawyer (who is also my friend) about the patent system in Germany. I confronted him with the argument that patents cost so much money and small businesses/normal people cannot afford patents. He then said that this is true but you don't have to pay so much in most cases because of a trick: You can send the patent agency your patent paper and tell them to not evaluate it. They have to archive it for up to seven years and you only have to pay about 500 Euros for this. Assuming your papers are valid you can claim your "patent" at some point during the next seven years. If someone else files the same paper he is out of luck because you filed it first but without letting the agency evaluate it. I don't know if this is true (I trust my friend in that regard) and it does not help everyone in every situation but in may come in handy. Is anybody here who knows if this is actually the case?
- dpatru 14y ago
  In the US, you can file a provisional patent which will lock-in the filing date for up to one year. http://www.uspto.gov/patents/resources/types/provapp.jsp http://www.uspto.gov/patents/resources/types/provapp.jsp There is also a backlog for patents in certain technologies, so after you file, you may have to wait for a several years before you need to "prosecute" the patent.
- adrinavarro 14y ago
  And what about prior art? For example, you actually release a digital audio player but don't pay for the patent because you cannot afford it — you cannot be sued and somebody else can't claim a patent over it. Supposedly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art
  - LinaLauneBaer 14y ago
    One of my professors told me this: In case you have a good idea you can simply write it down, print it out, sign it and send it to yourself via certified paper mail. When you receive the mail you don't open it. You simply put it in a safe place. Then you can use this to prove prior art because its more or less a official document according to the (German) law. Again: I am not a lawyer and this may be totally wrong...
lusr 14y ago
It would be sad if it were true. But there are too many parts of this story that make no sense and therefore make me doubt its veracity: - US patent was granted in 1987 and maintenance fees must be paid 3.5, 7.5 and 11.5 years after that i.e. first fees due in 1991; UK patent was granted in 1985 and maintenance fees must be paid 4, 5, 6, etc years after that, i.e. first payment in 1989. So why the hell does a 1988 boardroom dispute result in being unable to pay the small fees required 1 and 3 years later? - nevermind the chronology, if you have 60 million pounds worth of orders then getting a bank manager to loan you 60,000 pounds for licensing fees is a simple matter; he probably didn't actually have 60 million pounds of orders (there's no citation in the article for verifying this claim either) - whatever number of orders he did have were clearly not enough to convince banks or investors to pony up the 60k required; now, if he didn't have enough orders in 1989, when the UK maintenance fees became due, which was 3 years after the trade show in 1986, the real problem must be he didn't run his business properly, not patent maintenance fees - or maybe the 60k wasn't really the full extent of the business's financial issues; either way there's only 2 possibilities here: his product didn't deliver what it claimed to and so he couldn't raise the funding he required, or the product was fine but he ran the business poorly Reading between the lines, what's sad in this story isn't the patent system, it's the lack of business acumen required to take a product to market. Had the patent been extended it's unlikely he would have been commercially successful (other than perhaps to peddle the patent onwards, which isn't what people seem to be defining as success here) because the problem wasn't a matter of time, it was one of business strategy and execution.

eternalban 14y ago

I filed a provisional patent app in '96 for a "presence protocol" based decentralized personal networking governed by a social model. I ran into the same precise issue and must sheepishly admit permitted it to get the better of me and abandoned it. Watching the likes of FB, G+ et al these past few years has been a somewhat bitter experience. :) I guess the silver lining is that I am in possession of government stamped receipt confirming prior art in this domain.

monochromatic 14y ago
... unpublished prior art.
- eternalban 14y ago
  USPTO doesn't count? I've been wondering about that. What do you suggest? Scan it and publish it?
  - monochromatic 14y ago
    See 35 U.S.C. 102.
    - eternalban 14y ago
      Thanks for the link. Looks like PPA's don't count. C'est la vie.
tisme 14y ago
I think this argues rather strongly against patents. After all, if you didn't publish it and someone else came up with it independently several times over then clearly that counts as anecdotal support for ideas having a way of re-surfacing many times until the time is ripe. The fact that you thought of it first - assuming you did, because there may be many more people like you, some of those may have had the idea even earlier - should not give you a right to a slice of someone else's pie.
- eternalban 14y ago
  (They haven't fully caught up with me yet.) Further note I have no interest in taking a slice of anyone's pie. If I did, I would not be discussing this matter here with you; I would have taken my lawyer's advice. The only (hypothetical) interest at this point would have been to defend against a patent in this domain.

LinaLauneBaer 14y ago

I talked to a lawyer (who is also my friend) about the patent system in Germany. I confronted him with the argument that patents cost so much money and small businesses/normal people cannot afford patents. He then said that this is true but you don't have to pay so much in most cases because of a trick: You can send the patent agency your patent paper and tell them to not evaluate it. They have to archive it for up to seven years and you only have to pay about 500 Euros for this. Assuming your papers are valid you can claim your "patent" at some point during the next seven years. If someone else files the same paper he is out of luck because you filed it first but without letting the agency evaluate it. I don't know if this is true (I trust my friend in that regard) and it does not help everyone in every situation but in may come in handy. Is anybody here who knows if this is actually the case?

dpatru 14y ago
In the US, you can file a provisional patent which will lock-in the filing date for up to one year. http://www.uspto.gov/patents/resources/types/provapp.jsp http://www.uspto.gov/patents/resources/types/provapp.jsp There is also a backlog for patents in certain technologies, so after you file, you may have to wait for a several years before you need to "prosecute" the patent.
adrinavarro 14y ago
And what about prior art? For example, you actually release a digital audio player but don't pay for the patent because you cannot afford it — you cannot be sued and somebody else can't claim a patent over it. Supposedly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art
- LinaLauneBaer 14y ago
  One of my professors told me this: In case you have a good idea you can simply write it down, print it out, sign it and send it to yourself via certified paper mail. When you receive the mail you don't open it. You simply put it in a safe place. Then you can use this to prove prior art because its more or less a official document according to the (German) law. Again: I am not a lawyer and this may be totally wrong...

lusr 14y ago

It would be sad if it were true. But there are too many parts of this story that make no sense and therefore make me doubt its veracity: - US patent was granted in 1987 and maintenance fees must be paid 3.5, 7.5 and 11.5 years after that i.e. first fees due in 1991; UK patent was granted in 1985 and maintenance fees must be paid 4, 5, 6, etc years after that, i.e. first payment in 1989. So why the hell does a 1988 boardroom dispute result in being unable to pay the small fees required 1 and 3 years later? - nevermind the chronology, if you have 60 million pounds worth of orders then getting a bank manager to loan you 60,000 pounds for licensing fees is a simple matter; he probably didn't actually have 60 million pounds of orders (there's no citation in the article for verifying this claim either) - whatever number of orders he did have were clearly not enough to convince banks or investors to pony up the 60k required; now, if he didn't have enough orders in 1989, when the UK maintenance fees became due, which was 3 years after the trade show in 1986, the real problem must be he didn't run his business properly, not patent maintenance fees - or maybe the 60k wasn't really the full extent of the business's financial issues; either way there's only 2 possibilities here: his product didn't deliver what it claimed to and so he couldn't raise the funding he required, or the product was fine but he ran the business poorly Reading between the lines, what's sad in this story isn't the patent system, it's the lack of business acumen required to take a product to market. Had the patent been extended it's unlikely he would have been commercially successful (other than perhaps to peddle the patent onwards, which isn't what people seem to be defining as success here) because the problem wasn't a matter of time, it was one of business strategy and execution.