6 ms·

I don't want a "PC future" where you can't just install software without OS vendor blessing.

by Klaster_1 9mo ago

netdevphoenix 9mo ago
Neither do I. But with Windows slipping badly, Google could start encroaching on their core tech.
- torben-friis 9mo ago
  Linux seems to be gaining a lot of traction, both with the fall of windows and gaming being more than feasible. It makes sense for the tech savvy option to succeed, now that personal computing is disappearing. Average folks won’t use a windows/macbook, they’ll use phones and tablets. My only concern is ending in a macOS+asahi situation where supporting a single device requires mountains of effort.
  - Loughla 9mo ago
    The fall of windows and Linux gaining traction. I've seen that written on here, Reddit, /., digg, hell even on usenet back in the day. . . .
    - LorenDB 9mo ago
      And yet it's undeniable that 2025 had some of the biggest Linux hype in recent times: - Windows 10 went EOL and triggered a wave of people moving to Linux to escape Windows 11 - DHH's adventures in Linux inspired a lot of people (including some popular coding streamers/YouTubers) to try Linux - Pewdiepie made multiple videos about switching to Linux and selfhosting - Bazzite reported serving 1 PB of downloads in one month - Zorin reported 1M downloads of ZorinOS 18 in one month and crossed the 2M threshold in under 3 months - I personally recall seeing a number of articles from various media outlets of writers trying Linux and being pretty impressed with how good it was - And don't forget Valve announced the Steam Machine and Steam Frame, which will both run Linux and have a ton of hype around them In fact, I think that we will look back in 5 or 10 years and point at 2025 as the turning point for Linux on the desktop.
    - torben-friis 9mo ago
      Yes, but have you seen you real life non tech friends move to Linux? I’m seeing it now, and this is new.
      - pjmlp 9mo ago
        Yes, and I also have seen they come back to Windows, when they got into issues sharing software or files with friends, or local goverment requirements, and didn't had a relative to do their IT support for free.
  - pjmlp 9mo ago
    The cycling speech since Window XP Toy's R US L&F days, unfortunely. Less fragmentation, more focus, OEM support on devices selling on regular stores is needed, otherwise we won't get away from the yearly meme.
    - flohofwoe 9mo ago
      > otherwise we won't get away from the yearly meme What's different in the last decade is that Windows is on an undeniable quality downward spiral, it's simply not important anymore for Microsoft. E.g. desktop Linux doesn't even need to improve, it just needs to wait for Windows to become worse ;)
      - pjmlp 9mo ago
        Unless it becomes available for normies to buy laptops with it pre-installed at Saturn, Media Market, FNAC, Cool Blue, and co, it won't matter. They aren't going to buy them from Tuxedo.
        flohofwoe 9mo ago
        "Normies" buy smartphones and maybe a tablet, neither of those has Windows preinstalled either.
        pjmlp 9mo ago
        Available at Saturn, Media Market, FNAC, Cool Blue show floor.
        flohofwoe 9mo ago
        ...and a market share of 0.02% ;) https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/tablet/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/tablet/worldwide (I guess those 'Windows tablets' are running under convertible laptops or something...)
- fc417fc802 9mo ago
  So just don't use windows? The only reason I use android to begin with is because the mobile centric distros I looked into didn't appear to be to the point I would want to daily drive them yet. If and when that changes I'll switch. The only real issue is sourcing good mobile hardware that isn't locked down. At least for the time being the pixel line satisfies that.
direwolf20 9mo ago
This is why Valve invested so much in Linux. They saw the writing on the wall of Microsoft becoming Apple (but shittier). Now they have an alternative. If Microsoft charges a 30% tax on all Steam transactions and won't let Steam run unless they do that, Valve can heavily push Linux and Steam Machine sales.
- pjmlp 9mo ago
  And yet they failed to get game devs to natively target SteamOS. As long as they depend on Proton, they haven't fully solved their problem.
  - flohofwoe 9mo ago
    Tbh, why bother? kernel32+user32+gdi32+d3d[11|12]+dxgi is a pretty great API abstraction for game development. And unlike Linux desktop APIs the Win32 APIs are actually stable, so those games will also work in 5 years, and most importantly, performance is the same or better than on Windows. It's unlikely that game devs directly targeting Vulkan would do any better, and when using a high level engine, any layering overhead in Proton is negligible anyway. And don't even get me started about the state of audio APIs on Linux ;) Also don't underestimate the amount of workarounds and tweaks that (most likely) go into Proton for games that make poor system API use. Without Proton those game-specific hacks would need to go into MESA, Wayland, X11 or various system audio libraries. At least Proton is one central place to accumulate all the game-specific warts in some dusty corner of their code base. TL;DR: just think of Proton as an extremely low level and slim cross-platform API for games (not all that different than SDL), and suddenly it makes a lot of sense. And I bet that in 5..10 years Windows will have regressed so much that it might actually be better to run games through a Proton-like shim even on Windows (assuming Windows hasn't become 'yet another Linux distro' by then anyway) ;)
    - LtWorf 9mo ago
      Try running a directx 5 game and let me know how it goes.
palata 9mo ago
Same, but my PC runs on Linux so I don't feel threatened. I feel like at some point normies may end up just using iPadOS or Android as a "convergent" device: a tablet/phone that they can plug into a docking station and use as a computer. I am sort of hoping that it will work with something like GrapheneOS, so that I will be able to benefit from it on my phone.
- orev 9mo ago
  > my PC runs on Linux so I don't feel threatened. Well, you should feel threatened. Where do you think the push towards TPM and secure boot is heading? Microsoft is insanely envious of how Apple and Google locked down their platforms and have total control over app stores, and that’s what Microsoft wants too. It’s a huge revenue stream they’re leaving on the table. Now that there’s precedent on mobile, they’ll have no problem pushing it through on desktop. And once all the normies have moved to iPads, there won’t be a big enough market for anyone to manufacture PC hardware for hobbyists anymore.
  - palata 9mo ago
    Right, I guess we agree but I was not clear. In general, I don't care so much if Windows or macOS become as locked as Android or iOS, as long as I can install Linux on my hardware. My point is that many people seem to complain because they want to be root on the Google-certified Android. I disagree with that: Google makes an OS where you cannot be root. If you want an OS where you can be root, you should be able to install another OS on the hardware you bought. Because you should own that hardware. But you don't own Google.
    - digiown 9mo ago
      The problem is more that you're forced to use Google's OS. Usually just less convenient, but often in a literal sense too with these government services increasingly requiring attestation.
      - palata 9mo ago

I don't want a "PC future" where you can't just install software without OS vendor blessing.

netdevphoenix 9mo ago

Neither do I. But with Windows slipping badly, Google could start encroaching on their core tech.

torben-friis 9mo ago
Linux seems to be gaining a lot of traction, both with the fall of windows and gaming being more than feasible. It makes sense for the tech savvy option to succeed, now that personal computing is disappearing. Average folks won’t use a windows/macbook, they’ll use phones and tablets. My only concern is ending in a macOS+asahi situation where supporting a single device requires mountains of effort.
- Loughla 9mo ago
  The fall of windows and Linux gaining traction. I've seen that written on here, Reddit, /., digg, hell even on usenet back in the day. . . .
  - LorenDB 9mo ago
    And yet it's undeniable that 2025 had some of the biggest Linux hype in recent times: - Windows 10 went EOL and triggered a wave of people moving to Linux to escape Windows 11 - DHH's adventures in Linux inspired a lot of people (including some popular coding streamers/YouTubers) to try Linux - Pewdiepie made multiple videos about switching to Linux and selfhosting - Bazzite reported serving 1 PB of downloads in one month - Zorin reported 1M downloads of ZorinOS 18 in one month and crossed the 2M threshold in under 3 months - I personally recall seeing a number of articles from various media outlets of writers trying Linux and being pretty impressed with how good it was - And don't forget Valve announced the Steam Machine and Steam Frame, which will both run Linux and have a ton of hype around them In fact, I think that we will look back in 5 or 10 years and point at 2025 as the turning point for Linux on the desktop.
  - torben-friis 9mo ago
    Yes, but have you seen you real life non tech friends move to Linux? I’m seeing it now, and this is new.
    - pjmlp 9mo ago
      Yes, and I also have seen they come back to Windows, when they got into issues sharing software or files with friends, or local goverment requirements, and didn't had a relative to do their IT support for free.
- pjmlp 9mo ago
  The cycling speech since Window XP Toy's R US L&F days, unfortunely. Less fragmentation, more focus, OEM support on devices selling on regular stores is needed, otherwise we won't get away from the yearly meme.
  - flohofwoe 9mo ago
    > otherwise we won't get away from the yearly meme What's different in the last decade is that Windows is on an undeniable quality downward spiral, it's simply not important anymore for Microsoft. E.g. desktop Linux doesn't even need to improve, it just needs to wait for Windows to become worse ;)
    - pjmlp 9mo ago
      Unless it becomes available for normies to buy laptops with it pre-installed at Saturn, Media Market, FNAC, Cool Blue, and co, it won't matter. They aren't going to buy them from Tuxedo.
      - flohofwoe 9mo ago
        "Normies" buy smartphones and maybe a tablet, neither of those has Windows preinstalled either.
        pjmlp 9mo ago
        Available at Saturn, Media Market, FNAC, Cool Blue show floor.
        flohofwoe 9mo ago
        ...and a market share of 0.02% ;) https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/tablet/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/tablet/worldwide (I guess those 'Windows tablets' are running under convertible laptops or something...)
fc417fc802 9mo ago
So just don't use windows? The only reason I use android to begin with is because the mobile centric distros I looked into didn't appear to be to the point I would want to daily drive them yet. If and when that changes I'll switch. The only real issue is sourcing good mobile hardware that isn't locked down. At least for the time being the pixel line satisfies that.

direwolf20 9mo ago

This is why Valve invested so much in Linux. They saw the writing on the wall of Microsoft becoming Apple (but shittier). Now they have an alternative. If Microsoft charges a 30% tax on all Steam transactions and won't let Steam run unless they do that, Valve can heavily push Linux and Steam Machine sales.

pjmlp 9mo ago
And yet they failed to get game devs to natively target SteamOS. As long as they depend on Proton, they haven't fully solved their problem.
- flohofwoe 9mo ago
  Tbh, why bother? kernel32+user32+gdi32+d3d[11|12]+dxgi is a pretty great API abstraction for game development. And unlike Linux desktop APIs the Win32 APIs are actually stable, so those games will also work in 5 years, and most importantly, performance is the same or better than on Windows. It's unlikely that game devs directly targeting Vulkan would do any better, and when using a high level engine, any layering overhead in Proton is negligible anyway. And don't even get me started about the state of audio APIs on Linux ;) Also don't underestimate the amount of workarounds and tweaks that (most likely) go into Proton for games that make poor system API use. Without Proton those game-specific hacks would need to go into MESA, Wayland, X11 or various system audio libraries. At least Proton is one central place to accumulate all the game-specific warts in some dusty corner of their code base. TL;DR: just think of Proton as an extremely low level and slim cross-platform API for games (not all that different than SDL), and suddenly it makes a lot of sense. And I bet that in 5..10 years Windows will have regressed so much that it might actually be better to run games through a Proton-like shim even on Windows (assuming Windows hasn't become 'yet another Linux distro' by then anyway) ;)
  - LtWorf 9mo ago
    Try running a directx 5 game and let me know how it goes.

palata 9mo ago

Same, but my PC runs on Linux so I don't feel threatened. I feel like at some point normies may end up just using iPadOS or Android as a "convergent" device: a tablet/phone that they can plug into a docking station and use as a computer. I am sort of hoping that it will work with something like GrapheneOS, so that I will be able to benefit from it on my phone.

orev 9mo ago
> my PC runs on Linux so I don't feel threatened. Well, you should feel threatened. Where do you think the push towards TPM and secure boot is heading? Microsoft is insanely envious of how Apple and Google locked down their platforms and have total control over app stores, and that’s what Microsoft wants too. It’s a huge revenue stream they’re leaving on the table. Now that there’s precedent on mobile, they’ll have no problem pushing it through on desktop. And once all the normies have moved to iPads, there won’t be a big enough market for anyone to manufacture PC hardware for hobbyists anymore.
- palata 9mo ago
  Right, I guess we agree but I was not clear. In general, I don't care so much if Windows or macOS become as locked as Android or iOS, as long as I can install Linux on my hardware. My point is that many people seem to complain because they want to be root on the Google-certified Android. I disagree with that: Google makes an OS where you cannot be root. If you want an OS where you can be root, you should be able to install another OS on the hardware you bought. Because you should own that hardware. But you don't own Google.
  - digiown 9mo ago
    The problem is more that you're forced to use Google's OS. Usually just less convenient, but often in a literal sense too with these government services increasingly requiring attestation.
    - palata 9mo ago