4 ms·
This is one of the reasons it's crucial that the next set of secure messaging systems does away with tying real phone numbers to accounts. One phone gets compr
by heavyset_go 9mo ago
This is one of the reasons it's crucial that the next set of secure messaging systems does away with tying real phone numbers to accounts.
One phone gets compromised and the whole network is identified with their phone numbers.
- inetknght 9mo agoIf only we knew this would happen when these products were launched... Oh wait, we did.
- trollbridge 9mo agoGee, like any of competing systems like Session.
- itake 9mo agoSession is a low-privacy fork of Signal. source: https://soatok.blog/2025/01/14/dont-use-session-signal-fork/ https://soatok.blog/2025/01/14/dont-use-session-signal-fork/ hn discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42707409 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42707409
- tasuki 9mo agoWhat better alternatives do we have? Not tying my account to a phone number, but rather saving thirteen words, is exactly the UX I've always desired. I don't even need privacy, but I hate losing things when I inevitably lose my phone number.
- nobody9999 9mo ago>What better alternatives do we have? Set up your own XMPP or Matrix server and only expose it via Tor.
- octoberfranklin 9mo agoRicochet (chat via Tor .onion circuits): https://www.ricochetrefresh.net/ https://www.ricochetrefresh.net/ Tox (if you're addicted to phones): https://tox.chat/ https://tox.chat/
- longitudinal93 9mo agoHiding your phone number is a setting now. Has been for well over a year.
- webdoodle 9mo agoCan you easily sign up without a phone number though?
- karlzt 9mo agoNo. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45454478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45454478
- heavyset_go 9mo agoYou can't sign up without one, and it being an option means people who are in danger won't do it. Also, if someone's phone is confiscated, and you're in their Signal chats and their address book, it doesn't matter if you're hiding your number on Signal. It's better to just not require such identifying information at all.
- godelski 9mo agoThat's true for any system where you have contacts linked. Same thing happens when you have names and avatars. If you don't want to link your contacts... don't link your contacts... But this doesn't have the result that the GP claimed. The whole network doesn't unravel because in big groups like these one number doesn't have all the other contacts in their system. For people that need it: | Settings |- Chat | |- Share Contacts with iOS/Android <--- (Turn off) |- Privacy | |- Phone Number | | |- Who Can See My Number | | | |- Everybody | | | |- Nobody <---- | | |- Who Can Find Me By Number | | | |- Everybody | | | |- Nobody <---- | |- App Security | | |- Hide Screen in App Switcher <---- Turn on | | |- Screen Lock <---- Turn on | |- Advanced | | |- Always Relay Calls <----- If you are extra concerned, turn on disappearing messages. This is highly suggested for any group chats like the ones being discussed. You should also disable read receipts and typing indicators. Some of these settings are already set btw
- MDWolinski 9mo agoZangi does this. No idea on their overall security posture compared to Signal, however.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 9mo agoIf the Signal Messaging LLC is compromised, then "updates", e.g., spyware, can be remotely installed on every Signal user's computer, assuming every Signal user allows "automatic updates". I don't think Signal has a setting to turn off updates Not only does one have to worry about other Signal users being compromised, one also has to worry about a third party being compromised: the Signal Messaaging LLC
- heavyset_go 9mo agoSignal Messaging LLC is US-based and needs to follow CALEA[1] by law. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_Law_Enforcement_Act#Technical_implementation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_...
- krunck 9mo agoBut does it? In what way?
- heavyset_go 9mo agoThey aren't allowed to tell you by law, and courts work with prosecution to keep implementation details away from the public, and investigators will engage in parallel construction to obfuscate the sources of evidence. That's just on the normal law enforcement side. Once you get into the national security side, the secrecy is even higher.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 9mo ago"Carrying this speculation a step further, it is possible that the available tools have been compromised either in individual instances or en masse. Even where security products are open-source, adequate security evaluations are difficult to conduct initially and difficult to maintain as the products evolve. Typical users upgrade their software when upgrades or packages are offered, without even thinking of the possibility that they may have been targeted for a Trojan horse." Whitfield Diffie and Susan Landau, Privacy on the Line: The Politics of Wiretapping and Encryption (MIT Press: Cambridge, 2007), 372 Italics are mine
- saguntum 9mo agoI haven't tried it, but Signal supports not sharing your phone number/just communicating with usernames: https://signal.org/blog/phone-number-privacy-usernames/ https://signal.org/blog/phone-number-privacy-usernames/ You still need to use your phone number to sign up, though.
- jack1243star 9mo ago> You still need to use your phone number to sign up, though. Which defeats the whole point. What if the FBI politely asks Signal about a phone number?
- electromech 9mo agoThey publicly publish these requests. You can see how little information is provided — just a phone number and two unix timestamps IIRC. https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/
- Grisu_FTP 9mo agoI might be misremembering or mixing memories but i remember something about them only storing the hash of the number. So the FBI cant ask what phone number is tied to an account, but if a specific phone number was tied to the specific account? (As in, Signal gets the number, runs it through their hash algorythm and compares that hash to the saved one) But my memory is very very bad, so like i said, i might be wrong
- account42 9mo agoIt would be absolutely trivial for the FBI to hash every single assigned phone number and check which one matches. Hashing only provides any anonymity if the source domain is too large to be enumerable.
- kreetx 9mo agoBrief research says that Signal does store phone numbers. Regarding hashing: while unsalted phone number hashes would be easy to reverse then I doubt that any hashing scheme today is set up like that.
- whateveracct 9mo agoPhysical keys are the real path. Sign every message with your Yubikey.
- kreetx 9mo agoSame with internet trolls: make it possible to authenticate privately to social media platforms and the bots would disappear!
- DecoySalamander 9mo agoBots can authenticate just as well as human users. Both bots and trolls are completely different set of issues that cannot easily be solved, regardless of your approach.
- kreetx 9mo agoBots can have private keys that are only issued to humans?
- DecoySalamander 9mo agoYou will need to implement some very invasive issuing mechanism to ensure that only those with a pulse can procure new keys. Even then, keys will still be bought or stolen - as was the case with pre-Elon Twitter checkmarks.
- kreetx 9mo agoIn Europe some countries have ID cards which have a private key on it. If you report it stolen it goes into the revocation list and they issue a new ID card to you.
- N19PEDL2 9mo ago> it's crucial that the next set of secure messaging systems does away with tying real phone numbers to accounts. https://olvid.io/ https://olvid.io/
- Fokamul 9mo agoUsing any mobile phone connected to mobile network is breach of OPSEC, period. Even more in countries, where you cannot get anonymous SIM card. Not using phone numbers in chat app doesn't protect you against someone locating you. When phone is turned on, even without SIM, your location is saved, in inches. Thanks to 5G. And some phone turns itself on automatically, lol. Using laptop (without any wifi card) -> Wifi card (rotating fake MAC) -> wifi network/LTE modem with IMEI spoofing
- heavyset_go 9mo agoAgreed, but people are going to people and will use phones, anyway. Might as well not include identifying information during registration. Signal is a desktop app, as well. Even if you wanted to run it on Qubes in a Faraday cage, you'll need a phone number to register to use the app. In the ideal situation, no one would be using Signal, phones or computers, the design of the internet is inherently identifying and non-anonymizing.