7 ms·

Fundamentally, I think having a source of "free dopamine" on tap is not going to do any good. If I can get distracted from my real world tasks anytime, anywhere

by Liftyee 9mo ago

Fundamentally, I think having a source of "free dopamine" on tap is not going to do any good. If I can get distracted from my real world tasks anytime, anywhere, the immediate incentives to work on real things disappear. Effectively, one can get stuck in a local minimum. I don't know how to solve it, but personally I've chosen to block as many feeds/algorithms as I can, so I have to make a conscious decision to search for something (making it just as hard as making the conscious decision that I'm likely putting off). The only feeds I have right now are the FT and Hacker News. Everything else is just a blank home screen with a search bar.

echelon 9mo ago
This is what drugs and alcohol can become if not used in moderation. Once we have the AI holodeck (the full-sensory interactive, possibly multiplayer one), can you only imagine? TikTok is only the punch card phase of this. TikTok may as well be black and white television. Just imagine what we might have in twenty years. Maybe this is why we haven't found alien life. If their biologies have attention mechanisms like ours, maybe they automate highs and turn inward instead of outward. (I do like that better than AGI gray goo taking over galaxies.)
- Liftyee 9mo ago
  Agreed, AI/VR definitely offers nightmarish opportunities. At least drugs/alcohol are self limiting: you have to meet your dealer, go to a store, eventually run out of money... TikTok/Reels/Shorts are free, infinite, and in your pocket on a device you're now forced to use in daily life (bank/2fa/messaging apps).
  - echelon 9mo ago
    > a device you're now forced to use in daily life (bank/2fa/messaging apps). Restaurants with only QR code menus. "Let me scan your LinkedIn app." Verify your government ID on our app. "Zelle me." "Scan this code to pay." My favorite: "Scan this code for parking or you will be towed. Also, if you leave without paying, we'll tow you next time you enter any of our properties in any state because we scanned your license plate." There's no other way to pay. Apartment / condo door keys and entry systems. My battery is always at 10%. I don't know how y'all do it. This is also one of the many reasons why I think it's criminal that two private businesses are allowed to own this modern life necessity so completely.
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
d4v3 9mo ago
> If I can get distracted from my real world tasks anytime, anywhere, the immediate incentives to work on real things disappear. Effectively, one can get stuck in a local minimum. > I don't know how to solve it, ... > but personally I've chosen to block as many feeds/algorithms as I can, ... I think you solved it :) (at least, for yourself) There are many things "out there" that are addictive and distracting and thus unhealthy, but we all have to find some way to overcome
- Liftyee 8mo ago
  Thanks for your positive response. It's true, we all need to help each other in finding community and human connection again amidst the waterfall of "content". It's taken a few years to get to this point, but seeing the effects and regrets from over consumption of feeds made me take action.
j45 9mo ago
I was reading a few weeks ago that it's more about easy dopamine rather than free that is so incredibly destructive. Scrolling for hits of satisfying novelty is a proposition that will not be sustainably met. Part of me also wonders if things like this can be used for not so great things, can they be used for good things?
- andai 9mo ago
  Story time! A couple years ago, I found myself with pretty severe ADHD and no way to get treatment for it. (There may have been a global healthcare cataclysm involved...) I wanted to make some progress on a personal project, but I had a history of abandoning things, without external accountability. I had a guy for that the previous year, which worked great, but our interests diverged, so I had to find a way to do it on my own. I realized that I couldn't force it. I had to find a way to make it work without having sufficient dopamine. Without relying on willpower at all. So I stumbled into environmental design from first principles. I simply designed around all the failure modes. 1. I noticed that if I skipped a day of working on my project, the chance of completely losing momentum would rise enormously. So I decided I have to work every day, but to make it sustainable it only needs to be an hour. 2. I noticed that if I put work off until later in the day, the chance of skipping a day would rise enormously. So I decided that I had to start working as soon as I woke up. (But only for an hour. I could keep going but I didn't have to.) 3. And finally I noticed that, if I started playing with my phone or surfing the internet, the day was basically over. So I made a rule that I had to keep them both off for the first hour of the day. (And I turned them off the night before for good measure. That way I am waking up into the correct state by default.) And what do you know. I didn't miss a day for 3 months. Even my dopamine starved brain was able to persist on this project every day without fail for several months straight, because I simply made these small changes to my environment! The project suddenly became the most fun and interesting thing I could be doing. I actually looked forward to working on it the next day, when I went to sleep at night!
card_zero 9mo ago
But if things interest you, does that not also provide dopamine? If the interesting things are easily available, are they "free" and addictive and bad? If they're good because they're interesting, is TikTok not interesting to those who like it? If you had a pinball machine and it distracted you, would that be bad, or a hobby? Is TikTok more compelling than pinball because of the algorithm? Is the algorithm not merely providing things that will likely interest you? Is interest bad now?
- callc 9mo ago
  Wow this is a bad take and a half. Apply the argument to abusing drugs now, and see how this argument throws all nuance out the window.
  - card_zero 9mo ago
    Well, addictive drugs cause punishment to a quitting user by chemical means. By the way, I'm interested in answers. I don't appreciate this being shot down as a bad take. Give me explanations, not disapproval.
    - notpushkin 9mo ago
      There’s physical dependence and there’s psychological dependence. Most drugs can cause both, but hallucinogens in particular are usually thought to cause only psychological dependence. Whether that makes them less dangerous is debatable, but the fact is, they can still cause addiction if used carelessly. Now to your main point... dopamine hits aren’t inherently good or bad. They can, however, also make things addictive, and drug abuse is indeed a good parallel here.
      - card_zero 9mo ago
        What do you think about pinball? Is it bad for us, should we sue?
        9mo ago
codyb 9mo ago
I just bought a flip phone and a cool pocket sized camera. I've gotten down to leaving my phone at home a fair amount, and leave my phone on a speaker that's not near anything I sit on when at home. It's awesome, come on back out to reality. I frequently go out at this point, come back home and go to see if I have any messages and realize my phone was on me the whole time and I had no idea (I also silence pretty much everything...). I'm super pumped to have an actual camera to play with that's pocket sized too since I did miss the camera. But now I'll have something tremendously superior and can leave that aging device filled with way too many 2FA codes I don't want to inadvertently lose at home.
- andai 9mo ago
  What kinda phone do you have? I was nostalgic for getting an old nokia, but when I actually did, using it was surprisingly painful. I guess that's kind of the point? I still need a proper mp3 player (been using an old android) and a camera though. ...and a Kindle, and a fax machine ;) As a side note, the "old" style Nokias now seem to be running on some kind of emulation... The Nokia startup sound lagged and stuttered and made me die a little inside.
  - codyb 8mo ago
    Yea, when I'm on the move I rarely use more than texting and the camera. So I got a Nokia flip phone, and I'll see how it is. Worst comes to worst it'll be 90 bucks lost and I'll move back to something a bit more full featured. But really I chose for size, and to be able to text and make calls. It's possible I'll end up sticking with my mini for a while. I also got a really nice pocket camera which I'm much more excited about. It's called a Ricoh, so the camera and the phone should fit in my pockets without any real trouble or bulge. Plus keys, and wallet, and I feel like I'm set.
  - 1718627440 8mo ago
    I do use an old Nokia and I find the UI to be surprisingly well designed a lot of time. For example keys are async, so you can already have opened the SMS editor, before the display has updated. Not that that display update would be that slow, we are talking about ~300ms. Also nearly everything is doable with very few keypresses, its really impressive. I am quite curious, what was it exactly that you found painful.
pibaker 8mo ago
Some people find themselves awake at 3am with twenty Wikipedia tabs open. Just sayin'.
- Liftyee 8mo ago
  I've done that before (like many others), and occasionally still do. My current experience is that Wikipedia is decidedly finite (as far as content that is interesting enough for me to stick to, despite it being 3am). The slower pace and the conscious decision to choose what link I'll open next also regularly poke my "decision-making engine" to decide when to stop - no algorithmic feed of infinite scroll. Of course, YMMV

by Liftyee 9mo ago

echelon 9mo ago

This is what drugs and alcohol can become if not used in moderation. Once we have the AI holodeck (the full-sensory interactive, possibly multiplayer one), can you only imagine? TikTok is only the punch card phase of this. TikTok may as well be black and white television. Just imagine what we might have in twenty years. Maybe this is why we haven't found alien life. If their biologies have attention mechanisms like ours, maybe they automate highs and turn inward instead of outward. (I do like that better than AGI gray goo taking over galaxies.)

Liftyee 9mo ago
Agreed, AI/VR definitely offers nightmarish opportunities. At least drugs/alcohol are self limiting: you have to meet your dealer, go to a store, eventually run out of money... TikTok/Reels/Shorts are free, infinite, and in your pocket on a device you're now forced to use in daily life (bank/2fa/messaging apps).
- echelon 9mo ago
  > a device you're now forced to use in daily life (bank/2fa/messaging apps). Restaurants with only QR code menus. "Let me scan your LinkedIn app." Verify your government ID on our app. "Zelle me." "Scan this code to pay." My favorite: "Scan this code for parking or you will be towed. Also, if you leave without paying, we'll tow you next time you enter any of our properties in any state because we scanned your license plate." There's no other way to pay. Apartment / condo door keys and entry systems. My battery is always at 10%. I don't know how y'all do it. This is also one of the many reasons why I think it's criminal that two private businesses are allowed to own this modern life necessity so completely.

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

d4v3 9mo ago

> If I can get distracted from my real world tasks anytime, anywhere, the immediate incentives to work on real things disappear. Effectively, one can get stuck in a local minimum. > I don't know how to solve it, ... > but personally I've chosen to block as many feeds/algorithms as I can, ... I think you solved it :) (at least, for yourself) There are many things "out there" that are addictive and distracting and thus unhealthy, but we all have to find some way to overcome

Liftyee 8mo ago
Thanks for your positive response. It's true, we all need to help each other in finding community and human connection again amidst the waterfall of "content". It's taken a few years to get to this point, but seeing the effects and regrets from over consumption of feeds made me take action.

j45 9mo ago

I was reading a few weeks ago that it's more about easy dopamine rather than free that is so incredibly destructive. Scrolling for hits of satisfying novelty is a proposition that will not be sustainably met. Part of me also wonders if things like this can be used for not so great things, can they be used for good things?

andai 9mo ago
Story time! A couple years ago, I found myself with pretty severe ADHD and no way to get treatment for it. (There may have been a global healthcare cataclysm involved...) I wanted to make some progress on a personal project, but I had a history of abandoning things, without external accountability. I had a guy for that the previous year, which worked great, but our interests diverged, so I had to find a way to do it on my own. I realized that I couldn't force it. I had to find a way to make it work without having sufficient dopamine. Without relying on willpower at all. So I stumbled into environmental design from first principles. I simply designed around all the failure modes. 1. I noticed that if I skipped a day of working on my project, the chance of completely losing momentum would rise enormously. So I decided I have to work every day, but to make it sustainable it only needs to be an hour. 2. I noticed that if I put work off until later in the day, the chance of skipping a day would rise enormously. So I decided that I had to start working as soon as I woke up. (But only for an hour. I could keep going but I didn't have to.) 3. And finally I noticed that, if I started playing with my phone or surfing the internet, the day was basically over. So I made a rule that I had to keep them both off for the first hour of the day. (And I turned them off the night before for good measure. That way I am waking up into the correct state by default.) And what do you know. I didn't miss a day for 3 months. Even my dopamine starved brain was able to persist on this project every day without fail for several months straight, because I simply made these small changes to my environment! The project suddenly became the most fun and interesting thing I could be doing. I actually looked forward to working on it the next day, when I went to sleep at night!

card_zero 9mo ago

But if things interest you, does that not also provide dopamine? If the interesting things are easily available, are they "free" and addictive and bad? If they're good because they're interesting, is TikTok not interesting to those who like it? If you had a pinball machine and it distracted you, would that be bad, or a hobby? Is TikTok more compelling than pinball because of the algorithm? Is the algorithm not merely providing things that will likely interest you? Is interest bad now?

callc 9mo ago
Wow this is a bad take and a half. Apply the argument to abusing drugs now, and see how this argument throws all nuance out the window.
- card_zero 9mo ago
  Well, addictive drugs cause punishment to a quitting user by chemical means. By the way, I'm interested in answers. I don't appreciate this being shot down as a bad take. Give me explanations, not disapproval.
  - notpushkin 9mo ago
    There’s physical dependence and there’s psychological dependence. Most drugs can cause both, but hallucinogens in particular are usually thought to cause only psychological dependence. Whether that makes them less dangerous is debatable, but the fact is, they can still cause addiction if used carelessly. Now to your main point... dopamine hits aren’t inherently good or bad. They can, however, also make things addictive, and drug abuse is indeed a good parallel here.
    - card_zero 9mo ago
      What do you think about pinball? Is it bad for us, should we sue?
      - 9mo ago

codyb 9mo ago

I just bought a flip phone and a cool pocket sized camera. I've gotten down to leaving my phone at home a fair amount, and leave my phone on a speaker that's not near anything I sit on when at home. It's awesome, come on back out to reality. I frequently go out at this point, come back home and go to see if I have any messages and realize my phone was on me the whole time and I had no idea (I also silence pretty much everything...). I'm super pumped to have an actual camera to play with that's pocket sized too since I did miss the camera. But now I'll have something tremendously superior and can leave that aging device filled with way too many 2FA codes I don't want to inadvertently lose at home.

andai 9mo ago
What kinda phone do you have? I was nostalgic for getting an old nokia, but when I actually did, using it was surprisingly painful. I guess that's kind of the point? I still need a proper mp3 player (been using an old android) and a camera though. ...and a Kindle, and a fax machine ;) As a side note, the "old" style Nokias now seem to be running on some kind of emulation... The Nokia startup sound lagged and stuttered and made me die a little inside.
- codyb 8mo ago
  Yea, when I'm on the move I rarely use more than texting and the camera. So I got a Nokia flip phone, and I'll see how it is. Worst comes to worst it'll be 90 bucks lost and I'll move back to something a bit more full featured. But really I chose for size, and to be able to text and make calls. It's possible I'll end up sticking with my mini for a while. I also got a really nice pocket camera which I'm much more excited about. It's called a Ricoh, so the camera and the phone should fit in my pockets without any real trouble or bulge. Plus keys, and wallet, and I feel like I'm set.
- 1718627440 8mo ago
  I do use an old Nokia and I find the UI to be surprisingly well designed a lot of time. For example keys are async, so you can already have opened the SMS editor, before the display has updated. Not that that display update would be that slow, we are talking about ~300ms. Also nearly everything is doable with very few keypresses, its really impressive. I am quite curious, what was it exactly that you found painful.

pibaker 8mo ago

Some people find themselves awake at 3am with twenty Wikipedia tabs open. Just sayin'.

Liftyee 8mo ago
I've done that before (like many others), and occasionally still do. My current experience is that Wikipedia is decidedly finite (as far as content that is interesting enough for me to stick to, despite it being 3am). The slower pace and the conscious decision to choose what link I'll open next also regularly poke my "decision-making engine" to decide when to stop - no algorithmic feed of infinite scroll. Of course, YMMV