4 ms·

An exercise more people should partake in. Sometimes on HN I find it shocking just how completely clueless some of our prolific commentators are re: prejudice,

An exercise more people should partake in. Sometimes on HN I find it shocking just how completely clueless some of our prolific commentators are re: prejudice, whether by race, gender, creed, orientation, or anything else. The number of times I've seen people in privileged positions try to downplay, trivialize, and belittle those struggling with prejudice has made me want to quit HN more than once. Walking a mile in someone else's shoes requires some walking, not reading about it on the internet and making armchair theories. [edit] Seeing the other replies on this post is definitely way too depressing for Saturday night - a lot of loud, moralistic victim-blaming without understanding. For my own sanity I'm going to take myself out of this post entirely.

csours 14y ago
I'm a white guy, but I wear a trimmed beard and sometimes a skullcap when I'm exercising. I do get some funny looks, like people are trying to figure me out.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
gurkendoktor 14y ago
I agree, and I wish we could do that, but how? I won't look half as convincing if I wrap a scarf around my head. I have thought about this after reading about Günther Wallraff[1], and I haven't found a nice way to try this out. Maybe I should "dress up" on the internet? So far, the closest experience I have is being white and understanding Chinese - but it doesn't hurt nearly as much, the worst people regularly think about me is that I am an unreliable, eternal frat boy. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Günter_Wallraff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Günter_Wallraff
- wpietri 14y ago
  How about a turban? You could go for a Sikh turban: http://www.sikhnet.com/pages/tyingturbans http://www.sikhnet.com/pages/tyingturbans or a Muslim one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r1_HfOMRBM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r1_HfOMRBM I'm sure you could go to a local gurdwara or mosque and ask for pointers. They'd probably be over the moon. It's also not particularly hard to look verging-on-homeless poor.
  - gurkendoktor 14y ago
    Right, but I am white as paper and it takes a while to grow a beard. I would look like a male convert, something that (to me) seems much more exotic than a tanned person wearing a turban.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      Well, that was basically Ela's experience as well, and it was educational for her. If you really want to do skin tones, you'll need decent makeup. If you're in a big city, just go by a serious makeup store. (In San Francisco, Kryolan is great.) Otherwise, call up your local community theater and ask them to put you in touch with a makeup artist.
    - ktizo 14y ago
      The complexion doesn't matter, they are religions, not ethnicities. Also you are likely to get an even bigger reaction as you would probably then be viewed by some people as some kind of traitor.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  When it comes to skin color it's definitely a tall order - but it's realistic to do it re: orientation, wealth, or a large number of other factors where major discrimination happens. This is a similar story: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cross-closet-straight-christian-lives-year-gay-man/story?id=17443219#.UINepfk-toI http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cross-closet-straight-christian... The whole masquerade part also isn't strictly necessary, putting yourself close to the issues at hand is also helpful. I've never been homeless, but I've worked at three separate organizations related to homelessness (an employment/retraining program, a transitional home, and a straight-up shelter) and met many people that way. I will likely never gain a complete understanding of what it is like, but hopefully I've picked up enough of the big things that I'm being less of a net-negative on the world. Mark Twain once said (or perhaps according to the Internet Mark Twain once said): "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - purposefully exposing yourself to different types of people along all arbitrary lines of division in a substantial way may be the next best thing.
  - gurkendoktor 14y ago
    Ooohh, orientation is a fun one. I have never thought about that - thanks for the idea. I'll make a note for when I'm back home.
  - quadhome 14y ago
    He said it in The Innocents Abroad.
Jach 14y ago
Some of us have walked in the others' shoes, at least in this limited case of discrimination based solely on clothing. Guess what? Humans discriminate on clothing! You can drum up the social justice network and try to remove this neural programming without drugs, good luck with that. You can try and fight it, again, sincerely, good luck, I agree that clothing is irrelevant when judging other people, but I don't think you'll succeed. However, unlike discrimination based on someone's skin color or gender, discrimination of clothing has a very easy solution for the person being discriminated against: change your outfit. Some people who love their t-shirt and jeans need to wear a suit every now and again if they want to be treated well or taken seriously by certain people (and vice versa depending on social context--some formal suit-loving people need to dress more casually if they go to certain conventions for a talk). If I were a muslim girl getting discriminated against for wearing a hijab, I'd stop wearing the hijab.
- wpietri 14y ago
  Terrible analogy. People aren't discriminating because they think hijabs are unfashionable. They're discriminating because they correctly interpret the hijab as a religious marker. Did you notice that your advice basically amounts to "do your best to look like a straight, white, middle-class Christian"? And that you are basically blaming the victim? Both strike me as terrible advice.
  - guylhem 14y ago
    Sorry if this is rude, but this post feels like a bleeding hart white liberal voluntary experiencing with discrimination caused by obvious self sabotage - and then discovering that discrimination exists indeed, and blogging about her discovery. The obvious next step is converting to some religion or faith which requires unusual clothing or body painting, to "make a statement"/ taunt/provoke and then complain about how unfair the world is, for her VOLUNTARY CHOICES. It's not about blaming the victim - here I would like to blame someone who wants to play the victim, while people are actual victims. Such a voluntary self sabotage is insulting to people who suffer from discrimination for something they can't change (such as unusual appearance coming from different ethnicity, disease, etc.)
mgkimsal 14y ago
Closest I've gotten is traveling in other countries. Being the only white guy in a sea of non-white faces is... a bit unsettling. Not speaking the language makes things doubly hard, but even without that, it's at best challenging. In my case I know these situations only last a couple weeks, and I can go back to my comfortable world - everyone is not as fortunate as me. I totally realize it's not really even in the ballpark, but it was close enough for me.
ktizo 14y ago
If you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes, you can then say whatever you like. For one thing, you are now a mile away, and for another, you also have their shoes. (Not meaning to make light of what was an excellent post. Is just that I read your edit, and I thought you might be cheered up by sillyness.)
onetwothreefour 14y ago
Dude. Best thing to do is not read HN comments about any article concerning gender/race/etc. It's always depressing and no good will come of it. And honestly, do you think the person who posted this Tumblr cares what anyone on HN thinks?

csours 14y ago

I'm a white guy, but I wear a trimmed beard and sometimes a skullcap when I'm exercising. I do get some funny looks, like people are trying to figure me out.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

gurkendoktor 14y ago

I agree, and I wish we could do that, but how? I won't look half as convincing if I wrap a scarf around my head. I have thought about this after reading about Günther Wallraff[1], and I haven't found a nice way to try this out. Maybe I should "dress up" on the internet? So far, the closest experience I have is being white and understanding Chinese - but it doesn't hurt nearly as much, the worst people regularly think about me is that I am an unreliable, eternal frat boy. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Günter_Wallraff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Günter_Wallraff

wpietri 14y ago
How about a turban? You could go for a Sikh turban: http://www.sikhnet.com/pages/tyingturbans http://www.sikhnet.com/pages/tyingturbans or a Muslim one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r1_HfOMRBM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r1_HfOMRBM I'm sure you could go to a local gurdwara or mosque and ask for pointers. They'd probably be over the moon. It's also not particularly hard to look verging-on-homeless poor.
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  Right, but I am white as paper and it takes a while to grow a beard. I would look like a male convert, something that (to me) seems much more exotic than a tanned person wearing a turban.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Well, that was basically Ela's experience as well, and it was educational for her. If you really want to do skin tones, you'll need decent makeup. If you're in a big city, just go by a serious makeup store. (In San Francisco, Kryolan is great.) Otherwise, call up your local community theater and ask them to put you in touch with a makeup artist.
  - ktizo 14y ago
    The complexion doesn't matter, they are religions, not ethnicities. Also you are likely to get an even bigger reaction as you would probably then be viewed by some people as some kind of traitor.
potatolicious 14y ago
When it comes to skin color it's definitely a tall order - but it's realistic to do it re: orientation, wealth, or a large number of other factors where major discrimination happens. This is a similar story: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cross-closet-straight-christian-lives-year-gay-man/story?id=17443219#.UINepfk-toI http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cross-closet-straight-christian... The whole masquerade part also isn't strictly necessary, putting yourself close to the issues at hand is also helpful. I've never been homeless, but I've worked at three separate organizations related to homelessness (an employment/retraining program, a transitional home, and a straight-up shelter) and met many people that way. I will likely never gain a complete understanding of what it is like, but hopefully I've picked up enough of the big things that I'm being less of a net-negative on the world. Mark Twain once said (or perhaps according to the Internet Mark Twain once said): "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - purposefully exposing yourself to different types of people along all arbitrary lines of division in a substantial way may be the next best thing.
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  Ooohh, orientation is a fun one. I have never thought about that - thanks for the idea. I'll make a note for when I'm back home.
- quadhome 14y ago
  He said it in The Innocents Abroad.

Jach 14y ago

Some of us have walked in the others' shoes, at least in this limited case of discrimination based solely on clothing. Guess what? Humans discriminate on clothing! You can drum up the social justice network and try to remove this neural programming without drugs, good luck with that. You can try and fight it, again, sincerely, good luck, I agree that clothing is irrelevant when judging other people, but I don't think you'll succeed. However, unlike discrimination based on someone's skin color or gender, discrimination of clothing has a very easy solution for the person being discriminated against: change your outfit. Some people who love their t-shirt and jeans need to wear a suit every now and again if they want to be treated well or taken seriously by certain people (and vice versa depending on social context--some formal suit-loving people need to dress more casually if they go to certain conventions for a talk). If I were a muslim girl getting discriminated against for wearing a hijab, I'd stop wearing the hijab.

wpietri 14y ago
Terrible analogy. People aren't discriminating because they think hijabs are unfashionable. They're discriminating because they correctly interpret the hijab as a religious marker. Did you notice that your advice basically amounts to "do your best to look like a straight, white, middle-class Christian"? And that you are basically blaming the victim? Both strike me as terrible advice.
- guylhem 14y ago
  Sorry if this is rude, but this post feels like a bleeding hart white liberal voluntary experiencing with discrimination caused by obvious self sabotage - and then discovering that discrimination exists indeed, and blogging about her discovery. The obvious next step is converting to some religion or faith which requires unusual clothing or body painting, to "make a statement"/ taunt/provoke and then complain about how unfair the world is, for her VOLUNTARY CHOICES. It's not about blaming the victim - here I would like to blame someone who wants to play the victim, while people are actual victims. Such a voluntary self sabotage is insulting to people who suffer from discrimination for something they can't change (such as unusual appearance coming from different ethnicity, disease, etc.)

mgkimsal 14y ago

Closest I've gotten is traveling in other countries. Being the only white guy in a sea of non-white faces is... a bit unsettling. Not speaking the language makes things doubly hard, but even without that, it's at best challenging. In my case I know these situations only last a couple weeks, and I can go back to my comfortable world - everyone is not as fortunate as me. I totally realize it's not really even in the ballpark, but it was close enough for me.

ktizo 14y ago

If you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes, you can then say whatever you like. For one thing, you are now a mile away, and for another, you also have their shoes. (Not meaning to make light of what was an excellent post. Is just that I read your edit, and I thought you might be cheered up by sillyness.)

onetwothreefour 14y ago

Dude. Best thing to do is not read HN comments about any article concerning gender/race/etc. It's always depressing and no good will come of it. And honestly, do you think the person who posted this Tumblr cares what anyone on HN thinks?