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This is a response by a person who works for the Wikimedia Foundation (a personal response, not an official response): http://quominus.org/archives/979 http://q

by britta 14y ago

This is a response by a person who works for the Wikimedia Foundation (a personal response, not an official response): http://quominus.org/archives/979 http://quominus.org/archives/979 "There’s only one problem with this: Roth’s open letter is at best the (justifiably) aggrieved and confused ramblings of a man ignorantly discussing what he does not understand or remember..." It's long and probably worth reading to get a more balanced view of the situation.

niels_olson 14y ago
After professor Messer-Kruse's struggles with the Haymarket riot (http://chronicle.com/article/The-Undue-Weight-of-Truth-on/130704/ http://chronicle.com/article/The-Undue-Weight-of-Truth-on/13...), I submit Roth's approach is entirely appropriate.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Did you take the time to read the article linked above? What part of it did you not find compelling? It's a rant, yes, but it contains a series of direct refutations of Roth.
  - niels_olson 14y ago
    I did, and found it quite hyperbolic. It seems the basis of the complaint is that someone in the world with more public influence than a Wikipedia admin took their complaint to a public forum with a wider reach than Wikipedia talk pages. Nowhere did I suggest Roth is perfectly correct. But the general assertion of this line of dissent is that Roth should suck Wikipedia eggs until he groks Wikipedia, and until he does, he should otherwise keep quiet. Roth, his biographer, or both, seem to not thoroughly understand Wikipedia. I'm not arguing that. However, even with an imperfect understanding, the nature of his solution to the problem is correct in the first iteration.
    - tptacek 14y ago
      That's not the general assertion the article makes. Roth complained about an interpretation of _The Human Stain_ that had been made in numerous extremely reputable secondary sources, despite the fact that the article included a recitation of Roth's own intent. That's the core argument beneath the rant. Is that argument _wrong_? If not, it seems pretty compelling, regardless of how the rant itself is written. Facts don't become not facts simply because they're written hyperbolically.
      - niels_olson 14y ago
        I will agree that was the core argument, the line of dissent, I called it. But I don't think that is the reason he wrote the article, nor the reason for the shrill tone. He's pissed that someone with more public influence took their gripe to a larger public forum. In calmer waters, Oliver would express complete willingness to educate Roth, and his biographer, on Wikipedia policies. But my sense is that, like many domain experts, especially in subjects further from hard science, for Oliver bucking the established order is to be met with only the fiercest rebuke.
        tptacek 14y ago
        I don't have much to say about his tone ("drops mic" and all that). But the core issue here, just to make it very clear: Roth disagreed with a critical interpretation of _The Human Stain_ (albeit an interpretation that was grounded in fact --- "which acquaintance of Roth was the story inspired by"), and felt that his standing as the book's author gave him the authority to demand the removal of that interpretation from the encyclopedia. I respectfully submit that you don't have to be a rules lawyer to accept the encyclopedia's refusal to do that.
        niels_olson 14y ago
        Ok, FWIW, I have over 1000 wikipedia edits, run multiple mediawiki wikis, have started a number of articles on the English wikipedia, and am currently in a minor dispute about a template merger. My nephrology professor said there are two camps: the clumpers and splitters. While there may be some rules-based reason to make a distinction between the plights of Professor Messer-Kruse and Philip Roth, I think that to the first order they are both aggrieved experts outside the social circles of Wikipedia. To the second order, they both have a misunderstanding of Wikipedia's rules. To the third order, it appears the Wikipedia admins are not without fault in their willingness to move goalposts and parse ever further into a seemingly bottomless list of rules. To the fourth order, we are all enjoying a fair bit of hindsight: it probably wasn't so clear to anyone at the time Roth sat down to type this out. I'm not disagreeing with you. My only point was that what Roth did passes the common sense test every bit as much as what the Wikipedians did, regardless of how much the Wikipedia admins may chafe under the pressure of someone bringing external pressure to their kingdom.
  - FreakLegion 14y ago
    > What part of it did you not find compelling? The parts where it was 1. unnecessarily vitriolic, 2. self-important, and where it 3. prioritized strict, literal interpretation over common sense. I'll take these in order, although the most important point is probably the last one. 1. Philip Roth is going on 80 years old. It's not reasonable to expect him, or anyone else really, to fully grasp the ins and outs of Wikipedia. And let's face it, there's plenty about Wikipedia to criticize, as HNers often do. You don't get to institute byzantine editorial policies and then condemn people who work around them. There's more than a hint of the Kafkaesque to Wikipedia's "official channels." 2. Wikipedia is cool, and the veracity problem is a hard one, but there's no excuse for punting on it. He's "not convinced that there’s a solution to this problem"[1]? I don't care. Try anyway. People get way too defensive about this stuff when they should be channeling their inner Josiah Bartlet: "we can do better, and we must do better, and we will do better, and we will start this moment today." 3. Finally -- and a better example of le mot juste I've not seen in a while -- a central plot element of The Human Stain is the power of allegation, even when false. The line Roth objected to was about the alleged inspiration for his character. Note, as Andreas Kolbe does in the first comment to Oliver's blog, that this comment was filed under Roth's bio page, where it really had no place, and not, as Oliver's blog examines, the page of The Human Stain itself, where a broader overview of critical reaction to the book makes sense. So if we're picking nits, Roth was actually right, and Oliver was shifting the goalposts, a common informal fallacy. [1] That's from his follow-up post: http://quominus.org/archives/981 http://quominus.org/archives/981
rohamg 14y ago
It's harsh but spot on. Difficult to understand why Wikipedia wouldn't clean this up and release an official statement.
droithomme 14y ago
Interesting. His argument is that the article was only claiming that some other people thought Broyard's life was similar and he gives a link to a specific edit on Wikipedia, claiming the state of the article when Roth encountered it was only to say that some people thought the stories were similar, not that Roth was actually inspired: > False. There was absolutely no misstatement in the article. What the article claimed at the time he wrote this open letter was that “Kakutani and other critics were struck by the parallels to the life of Anatole Broyard, a writer and the New York Times literary critic in the 1950s and 1960s who was of Louisiana Creole mixed-race descent and passed for white”. He uses this edit to claim Roth is either mentally incompetent ("aggrieved and confused ramblings") or lying ("a malicious act"). However, this claim by quominus/Oliver is a misdirection. Looking through the edit history, that cited edit clearly happened after Roth's biographer attempted to correct the article, a fact which Oliver certainly was aware. The article when Roth saw it read: > Salon.com critic Charles Taylor argues that Roth had to have been at least partly inspired by the case of Anatole Broyard, a literary critic who, like the protagonist of ''The Human Stain'', was a man identified as Creole who spent his entire professional life more-or-less as white. Roth states there is no connection, as he did not know Broyard had any black ancestry until an article published months after he had started writing his novel. This citation is very different. Here, saying "Roth had to have been at least partly inspired" clearly puts for the supposition that Roth did partly base the novel on Broyard, whereas the later edit only says that some people saw parallels.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
I found the rebuttal fascinating. Neither Roth, nor Oliver, has even a smidgen of compassion for the other party's point of view. Philip Roth clearly doesn't "get" the fact that anyone can sign up and try to edit Wikipedia claiming to be God if they want, and those edits must be rejected because well they really could be anybody. Oliver clearly doesn't "get" the fact that some people are so used to being who they are, and so untainted by the deeper deceptions and pranks of the Internet, that they clearly think that simply corresponding should be sufficient. Certainly it was when written letters were taken why not now? And when two proud people with orthogonal world views disagree, well it just gets ugly and stays ugly sadly. Wikipedia could do with a way for 'primary sources' to provide them with information that they can both verify and use, so perhaps Philip could write them a letter in his own hand and sign it and they could digitize that and store it as the referenced source. It always helps to know that people who aren't used to the Internet don't realize just how easy it is for dogs [1] to troll you. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_youre_a_dog http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_y...
- vacri 14y ago
  Wikipedia could do with a way for 'primary sources' to provide them with information that they can both verify and use They have a way to verify a primary source - use a secondary source. perhaps Philip could write them a letter in his own hand and sign it and they could digitize that and store it as the referenced source Wikipedia intentionally does not pursue original research, which this certainly is.
  - justin66 14y ago
    > They have a way to verify a primary source - use a secondary source. I honestly cannot tell if this was meant to be a joke?
    - ChuckMcM 14y ago
      Its confusing isn't it? In Wikipedia speak you need someone other than the 'primary source' reporting on the information 'from' the primary source. Kind of like link authority in page rank. So if someone says "I'm the VP at JC penney and our web site is www.eatmybits.com" that is a 'primary' source but its not verified by anyone else, but if the New York times says "Oh look, JC penny just changed their primary URL to www.eatmybits.com" then that secondary source, quoting a primary source, gets approved. Its the whole 'someone we trust has vouched for something you are saying, so we kinda sort of believe it to be true.' The whole thing is made worse by Wikipedia editors who tend to speak in a short hand which as time goes on gets more and more opaque. All of it being a result of volunteer efforts to curate a source of 'facts.'
ghshephard 14y ago
It's odd - this was written in the New Yorker, which, previously, had in my mind a reputation for doing astonishing amounts of fact checking. If anything, reading the two articles brings them down a notch in my mind. I'd like to see Phillip Roth's response to Oliver. Nice response though, even though it wasn't an official Wikipedia Response.

by britta 14y ago

niels_olson 14y ago

After professor Messer-Kruse's struggles with the Haymarket riot (http://chronicle.com/article/The-Undue-Weight-of-Truth-on/130704/ http://chronicle.com/article/The-Undue-Weight-of-Truth-on/13...), I submit Roth's approach is entirely appropriate.

tptacek 14y ago
Did you take the time to read the article linked above? What part of it did you not find compelling? It's a rant, yes, but it contains a series of direct refutations of Roth.
- niels_olson 14y ago
  I did, and found it quite hyperbolic. It seems the basis of the complaint is that someone in the world with more public influence than a Wikipedia admin took their complaint to a public forum with a wider reach than Wikipedia talk pages. Nowhere did I suggest Roth is perfectly correct. But the general assertion of this line of dissent is that Roth should suck Wikipedia eggs until he groks Wikipedia, and until he does, he should otherwise keep quiet. Roth, his biographer, or both, seem to not thoroughly understand Wikipedia. I'm not arguing that. However, even with an imperfect understanding, the nature of his solution to the problem is correct in the first iteration.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    That's not the general assertion the article makes. Roth complained about an interpretation of _The Human Stain_ that had been made in numerous extremely reputable secondary sources, despite the fact that the article included a recitation of Roth's own intent. That's the core argument beneath the rant. Is that argument _wrong_? If not, it seems pretty compelling, regardless of how the rant itself is written. Facts don't become not facts simply because they're written hyperbolically.
    - niels_olson 14y ago
      I will agree that was the core argument, the line of dissent, I called it. But I don't think that is the reason he wrote the article, nor the reason for the shrill tone. He's pissed that someone with more public influence took their gripe to a larger public forum. In calmer waters, Oliver would express complete willingness to educate Roth, and his biographer, on Wikipedia policies. But my sense is that, like many domain experts, especially in subjects further from hard science, for Oliver bucking the established order is to be met with only the fiercest rebuke.
      - tptacek 14y ago
        I don't have much to say about his tone ("drops mic" and all that). But the core issue here, just to make it very clear: Roth disagreed with a critical interpretation of _The Human Stain_ (albeit an interpretation that was grounded in fact --- "which acquaintance of Roth was the story inspired by"), and felt that his standing as the book's author gave him the authority to demand the removal of that interpretation from the encyclopedia. I respectfully submit that you don't have to be a rules lawyer to accept the encyclopedia's refusal to do that.
        niels_olson 14y ago
        Ok, FWIW, I have over 1000 wikipedia edits, run multiple mediawiki wikis, have started a number of articles on the English wikipedia, and am currently in a minor dispute about a template merger. My nephrology professor said there are two camps: the clumpers and splitters. While there may be some rules-based reason to make a distinction between the plights of Professor Messer-Kruse and Philip Roth, I think that to the first order they are both aggrieved experts outside the social circles of Wikipedia. To the second order, they both have a misunderstanding of Wikipedia's rules. To the third order, it appears the Wikipedia admins are not without fault in their willingness to move goalposts and parse ever further into a seemingly bottomless list of rules. To the fourth order, we are all enjoying a fair bit of hindsight: it probably wasn't so clear to anyone at the time Roth sat down to type this out. I'm not disagreeing with you. My only point was that what Roth did passes the common sense test every bit as much as what the Wikipedians did, regardless of how much the Wikipedia admins may chafe under the pressure of someone bringing external pressure to their kingdom.
- FreakLegion 14y ago
  > What part of it did you not find compelling? The parts where it was 1. unnecessarily vitriolic, 2. self-important, and where it 3. prioritized strict, literal interpretation over common sense. I'll take these in order, although the most important point is probably the last one. 1. Philip Roth is going on 80 years old. It's not reasonable to expect him, or anyone else really, to fully grasp the ins and outs of Wikipedia. And let's face it, there's plenty about Wikipedia to criticize, as HNers often do. You don't get to institute byzantine editorial policies and then condemn people who work around them. There's more than a hint of the Kafkaesque to Wikipedia's "official channels." 2. Wikipedia is cool, and the veracity problem is a hard one, but there's no excuse for punting on it. He's "not convinced that there’s a solution to this problem"[1]? I don't care. Try anyway. People get way too defensive about this stuff when they should be channeling their inner Josiah Bartlet: "we can do better, and we must do better, and we will do better, and we will start this moment today." 3. Finally -- and a better example of le mot juste I've not seen in a while -- a central plot element of The Human Stain is the power of allegation, even when false. The line Roth objected to was about the alleged inspiration for his character. Note, as Andreas Kolbe does in the first comment to Oliver's blog, that this comment was filed under Roth's bio page, where it really had no place, and not, as Oliver's blog examines, the page of The Human Stain itself, where a broader overview of critical reaction to the book makes sense. So if we're picking nits, Roth was actually right, and Oliver was shifting the goalposts, a common informal fallacy. [1] That's from his follow-up post: http://quominus.org/archives/981 http://quominus.org/archives/981

rohamg 14y ago

It's harsh but spot on. Difficult to understand why Wikipedia wouldn't clean this up and release an official statement.

droithomme 14y ago

Interesting. His argument is that the article was only claiming that some other people thought Broyard's life was similar and he gives a link to a specific edit on Wikipedia, claiming the state of the article when Roth encountered it was only to say that some people thought the stories were similar, not that Roth was actually inspired: > False. There was absolutely no misstatement in the article. What the article claimed at the time he wrote this open letter was that “Kakutani and other critics were struck by the parallels to the life of Anatole Broyard, a writer and the New York Times literary critic in the 1950s and 1960s who was of Louisiana Creole mixed-race descent and passed for white”. He uses this edit to claim Roth is either mentally incompetent ("aggrieved and confused ramblings") or lying ("a malicious act"). However, this claim by quominus/Oliver is a misdirection. Looking through the edit history, that cited edit clearly happened after Roth's biographer attempted to correct the article, a fact which Oliver certainly was aware. The article when Roth saw it read: > Salon.com critic Charles Taylor argues that Roth had to have been at least partly inspired by the case of Anatole Broyard, a literary critic who, like the protagonist of ''The Human Stain'', was a man identified as Creole who spent his entire professional life more-or-less as white. Roth states there is no connection, as he did not know Broyard had any black ancestry until an article published months after he had started writing his novel. This citation is very different. Here, saying "Roth had to have been at least partly inspired" clearly puts for the supposition that Roth did partly base the novel on Broyard, whereas the later edit only says that some people saw parallels.

ChuckMcM 14y ago

I found the rebuttal fascinating. Neither Roth, nor Oliver, has even a smidgen of compassion for the other party's point of view. Philip Roth clearly doesn't "get" the fact that anyone can sign up and try to edit Wikipedia claiming to be God if they want, and those edits must be rejected because well they really could be anybody. Oliver clearly doesn't "get" the fact that some people are so used to being who they are, and so untainted by the deeper deceptions and pranks of the Internet, that they clearly think that simply corresponding should be sufficient. Certainly it was when written letters were taken why not now? And when two proud people with orthogonal world views disagree, well it just gets ugly and stays ugly sadly. Wikipedia could do with a way for 'primary sources' to provide them with information that they can both verify and use, so perhaps Philip could write them a letter in his own hand and sign it and they could digitize that and store it as the referenced source. It always helps to know that people who aren't used to the Internet don't realize just how easy it is for dogs [1] to troll you. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_youre_a_dog http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_y...

vacri 14y ago
Wikipedia could do with a way for 'primary sources' to provide them with information that they can both verify and use They have a way to verify a primary source - use a secondary source. perhaps Philip could write them a letter in his own hand and sign it and they could digitize that and store it as the referenced source Wikipedia intentionally does not pursue original research, which this certainly is.
- justin66 14y ago
  > They have a way to verify a primary source - use a secondary source. I honestly cannot tell if this was meant to be a joke?
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    Its confusing isn't it? In Wikipedia speak you need someone other than the 'primary source' reporting on the information 'from' the primary source. Kind of like link authority in page rank. So if someone says "I'm the VP at JC penney and our web site is www.eatmybits.com" that is a 'primary' source but its not verified by anyone else, but if the New York times says "Oh look, JC penny just changed their primary URL to www.eatmybits.com" then that secondary source, quoting a primary source, gets approved. Its the whole 'someone we trust has vouched for something you are saying, so we kinda sort of believe it to be true.' The whole thing is made worse by Wikipedia editors who tend to speak in a short hand which as time goes on gets more and more opaque. All of it being a result of volunteer efforts to curate a source of 'facts.'

ghshephard 14y ago

It's odd - this was written in the New Yorker, which, previously, had in my mind a reputation for doing astonishing amounts of fact checking. If anything, reading the two articles brings them down a notch in my mind. I'd like to see Phillip Roth's response to Oliver. Nice response though, even though it wasn't an official Wikipedia Response.