4 ms·

I think you're being sarcastic, but just in case you're not > Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic manipulation of information—including facts, half-truths

I think you're being sarcastic, but just in case you're not > Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic manipulation of information—including facts, half-truths, or lies—to influence public opinion, attitudes, and behaviors toward a specific cause, ideology, or agenda.

cheeseomlit 9mo ago
>including facts
- parthdesai 9mo ago
  > deliberate, systematic manipulation of information And, what are we doing with those facts? We're manipulating them lol
  - fc417fc802 9mo ago
    It's using information to influence public opinion in a calculated manner. Said information can include facts. It can even be entirely factual. Manipulating the feed of a social media website for the purpose of swaying the viewer's opinion is a cut and dry example of propaganda. Doesn't matter who does it or whether the information displayed is factual or not. Those things make zero difference.
    - johnnyanmac 9mo ago
      This really doesn't pass the sniff test. It reminds me of a recent post I saw: "what are movies people like only becsuse it is good?", calling it "quality slop". It's contradictory. If people are given a wide perspective of a situation and adjusts bias for the Overton window (aka, we don't let Nazis have an equal platform to a more progressive group), then we just call that good reporting. The act of convincing people isn't inherently a bad thing. How you do it matters a lot.
      - fc417fc802 9mo ago
        You're subtly misattributing me though. "Convincing someone" is a superset which contains intentional manipulation of the information someone is exposed to but also lots of other things. As you said, how you do it matters a lot. You've also gone and (IIUC) equated the general biases of an outlet with propaganda which I certainly wouldn't agree with. They're similar, and the former can certainly morph into the latter, but they aren't the same thing.
      - direwolf20 9mo ago
        GP is saying people aren't given a wide perspective of a situation
  - Cthulhu_ 9mo ago
    That can be part of it, but usually it's not necessary - certain facts, or certain aspects of facts (e.g. exclude some context) can just get exaggerated to have the desired effect on a larger population.
sneak 9mo ago
I am not being sarcastic at all. It is a common misconception that propaganda means lies. Propaganda is information designed to get you to believe a certain thing or feel a certain way. The best propaganda uses entirely truthful statements to manipulate your beliefs and emotions.
- somenameforme 9mo ago
  One of the best examples of this were the endless photos and information about stocked store shelves, filled with fresh goods at dirt cheap prices, during the Cold War. In general truth is the best propaganda, because when you lie there's always a rubber-band effect when somebody realizes, sooner or later, that they've been had.
mvdtnz 9mo ago
So literally what he just said. Propaganda can be factual.
muwtyhg 9mo ago
Sometimes what you choose to show, even if true, can impact how people see a situation or fact. That is what the OP is referring to. Your quote even mentions that propaganda can be made of "facts" and "half-truths" (a half-truth is usually a fact with a portion omitted to change the interpretation of the fact).
carlosjobim 9mo ago
Propaganda is information which supports a specific cause, whether true or false. If you think "propaganda" is defined as something being lies, then you have misunderstood the word. Product advertising is the most widespread form of propaganda. And in some non-english countries it is called "propaganda" and not "marketing".
WarmWash 9mo ago
A large percentage of Americans are convinced that police will just shoot them if they happen to feel like it. Even including ICE in this statistic, you will never even meet someone who knows someone who was murdered by a cop. Police encounters that turn deadly, not even blatant murder, are on the order of 1 in 50,000. However, that stream of police murder videos are definitely real. Propaganda is often stoking tiny sparks into large raging forest fires.
- southerntofu 9mo ago
  > police will just shoot them if they happen to feel like it. Well that's exactly the problem. There's nothing stopping them: no accountability, no justice. Many cops just don't feel like randomly shooting people, and that's good. The problem is if they do, and even if they brag about it, little will be done. Take for example the latest Sainte-Soline repression scandal revealed a few months back by Mediapart [1] where videos show dozens of riot cops making a contest about maiming the most people, encouraging one another to break engagement rules, and advocating for outright murder. Everybody knew before the bodycam videos, but now that we have official proof, we're still waiting for any kind of accountability. If i go around and shoot people, there is no way i will avoid prison. If a cop goes around and shoots people, or strangles people to death, prison is a very unlikely outcome. > you will never even meet someone who knows someone who was murdered by a cop That's not how statistics work. Police abuse tends to happen in the same low-income social groups (and ethnic minorities). As an example, living in France, i've met several people who had a family member killed by police. Statistically unlikely if i only hung around in "startup nation" or "intellectual bourgeoisie" circles, which is not my case. [1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation_du_25_mars_2023_%C3%A0_Sainte-Soline#Preuves_vid%C3%A9o_de_violences_polici%C3%A8res https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation_du_25_mars_2023_...
  - WarmWash 9mo ago
    Being killed by police is different than being murdered by police. Police in the US kill somewhere around 1000 people a year. But of those, it's something like 5-10 that are murders. There is maybe 1 every few years where the cop is itching to shoot someone who is clearly compliant and not a threat. The 990 police killing videos that become available every year now are not particularly compelling, because its bad actors trying to kill police and getting themselves killed. Sorry, I don't know anything about France and police though. The US has a different dynamic because guns are everywhere, especially where crime is. Every cop knows about the ~50 cops who are killed by guns every year.

cheeseomlit 9mo ago

>including facts

parthdesai 9mo ago
> deliberate, systematic manipulation of information And, what are we doing with those facts? We're manipulating them lol
- fc417fc802 9mo ago
  It's using information to influence public opinion in a calculated manner. Said information can include facts. It can even be entirely factual. Manipulating the feed of a social media website for the purpose of swaying the viewer's opinion is a cut and dry example of propaganda. Doesn't matter who does it or whether the information displayed is factual or not. Those things make zero difference.
  - johnnyanmac 9mo ago
    This really doesn't pass the sniff test. It reminds me of a recent post I saw: "what are movies people like only becsuse it is good?", calling it "quality slop". It's contradictory. If people are given a wide perspective of a situation and adjusts bias for the Overton window (aka, we don't let Nazis have an equal platform to a more progressive group), then we just call that good reporting. The act of convincing people isn't inherently a bad thing. How you do it matters a lot.
    - fc417fc802 9mo ago
      You're subtly misattributing me though. "Convincing someone" is a superset which contains intentional manipulation of the information someone is exposed to but also lots of other things. As you said, how you do it matters a lot. You've also gone and (IIUC) equated the general biases of an outlet with propaganda which I certainly wouldn't agree with. They're similar, and the former can certainly morph into the latter, but they aren't the same thing.
    - direwolf20 9mo ago
      GP is saying people aren't given a wide perspective of a situation
- Cthulhu_ 9mo ago
  That can be part of it, but usually it's not necessary - certain facts, or certain aspects of facts (e.g. exclude some context) can just get exaggerated to have the desired effect on a larger population.

sneak 9mo ago

I am not being sarcastic at all. It is a common misconception that propaganda means lies. Propaganda is information designed to get you to believe a certain thing or feel a certain way. The best propaganda uses entirely truthful statements to manipulate your beliefs and emotions.

somenameforme 9mo ago
One of the best examples of this were the endless photos and information about stocked store shelves, filled with fresh goods at dirt cheap prices, during the Cold War. In general truth is the best propaganda, because when you lie there's always a rubber-band effect when somebody realizes, sooner or later, that they've been had.

mvdtnz 9mo ago

So literally what he just said. Propaganda can be factual.

muwtyhg 9mo ago

Sometimes what you choose to show, even if true, can impact how people see a situation or fact. That is what the OP is referring to. Your quote even mentions that propaganda can be made of "facts" and "half-truths" (a half-truth is usually a fact with a portion omitted to change the interpretation of the fact).

carlosjobim 9mo ago

Propaganda is information which supports a specific cause, whether true or false. If you think "propaganda" is defined as something being lies, then you have misunderstood the word. Product advertising is the most widespread form of propaganda. And in some non-english countries it is called "propaganda" and not "marketing".

WarmWash 9mo ago

A large percentage of Americans are convinced that police will just shoot them if they happen to feel like it. Even including ICE in this statistic, you will never even meet someone who knows someone who was murdered by a cop. Police encounters that turn deadly, not even blatant murder, are on the order of 1 in 50,000. However, that stream of police murder videos are definitely real. Propaganda is often stoking tiny sparks into large raging forest fires.

southerntofu 9mo ago
> police will just shoot them if they happen to feel like it. Well that's exactly the problem. There's nothing stopping them: no accountability, no justice. Many cops just don't feel like randomly shooting people, and that's good. The problem is if they do, and even if they brag about it, little will be done. Take for example the latest Sainte-Soline repression scandal revealed a few months back by Mediapart [1] where videos show dozens of riot cops making a contest about maiming the most people, encouraging one another to break engagement rules, and advocating for outright murder. Everybody knew before the bodycam videos, but now that we have official proof, we're still waiting for any kind of accountability. If i go around and shoot people, there is no way i will avoid prison. If a cop goes around and shoots people, or strangles people to death, prison is a very unlikely outcome. > you will never even meet someone who knows someone who was murdered by a cop That's not how statistics work. Police abuse tends to happen in the same low-income social groups (and ethnic minorities). As an example, living in France, i've met several people who had a family member killed by police. Statistically unlikely if i only hung around in "startup nation" or "intellectual bourgeoisie" circles, which is not my case. [1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation_du_25_mars_2023_%C3%A0_Sainte-Soline#Preuves_vid%C3%A9o_de_violences_polici%C3%A8res https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation_du_25_mars_2023_...
- WarmWash 9mo ago
  Being killed by police is different than being murdered by police. Police in the US kill somewhere around 1000 people a year. But of those, it's something like 5-10 that are murders. There is maybe 1 every few years where the cop is itching to shoot someone who is clearly compliant and not a threat. The 990 police killing videos that become available every year now are not particularly compelling, because its bad actors trying to kill police and getting themselves killed. Sorry, I don't know anything about France and police though. The US has a different dynamic because guns are everywhere, especially where crime is. Every cop knows about the ~50 cops who are killed by guns every year.