6 ms·

> collectively our greatest fear Citation very much needed. This sounds like _your_ concern that you're trying to launder through projecting onto the rest of t

> collectively our greatest fear Citation very much needed. This sounds like _your_ concern that you're trying to launder through projecting onto the rest of the country.

breitling 9mo ago
Here ya go bud: https://abacusdata.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Slide6-1.png https://abacusdata.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Slide6-1.pn... It is one of the top 5 issues for ALL Canadians.
- uv-depression 9mo ago
  Leaving aside the fact that this is a single picture of a chart with no source provided (or sample size, or methodology)... that's eighth on that chart, not fifth, and just says "immigration" with no further detail.
- dyauspitr 9mo ago
  Number 8 on the list?
poncho_romero 9mo ago
Canada as a whole has been pro immigration for a long time, but our immigration system was broken in recent years, and the most visible consequence of that has been an enormous increase in low skill, low wage Indian workers. A lot of people who have never had issues with immigration policy before have become very anti Indian immigration as a result.
- uv-depression 9mo ago
  > A lot of people who have never had issues with immigration policy before have become very anti Indian immigration as a result. So we just let racists determine national policy now? I wonder how that's working out in the US.
  - poncho_romero 9mo ago
    You don't understand, and your unwillingness to approach this issue with the nuance it deserves will only drive people towards right-wing extremists. These people are not racists! The federal government increased immigration (largely of TFWs and students) by far too much, and that has put an enormous strain on Canada's housing and job market. Canadians are turning against broken immigration policy, which has naturally become associated with its most visible aspect--the recently arrived, unskilled Indian worker. You must understand the negative sentiment is driven by association with bad government policy, not naive racism towards Indians. Of course, none of this is the fault of individual immigrants or TFWs, but they are part of the problem, because they are symptoms of it. Racism is a serious allegation. Let's not cry wolf when there is a reasonable explanation here.
    - uv-depression 9mo ago
      How else am I to interpret someone seeing a group of people working low wage jobs and concluding that everyone from their country is a bad influence? > will only drive people towards right-wing extremists The right talks a big game about personal responsibility, but somehow their worst beliefs are always someone else's fault. Funny, that. > naturally become associated Now see, that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's _not_ natural or inevitable.
      - poncho_romero 9mo ago
        No one said "everyone from their country is a bad influence." Indians were viewed as model immigrants in Canada for decades. Again, their good name is being tarred due to bad government policy. My point is is that if leftists cannot talk about immigration policy in a nuanced way, right-wing extremists (for there are no other kinds of right wingers these days) will be the only game in town, and people who want to talk about immigration policy will therefore be drawn towards them. Humans see patterns in everything, that's how we work. You can be a naive idealist all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that people will inevitably associate the effects of a bad policy with the policy itself.
- Tiktaalik 9mo ago
  I think there's some particular niche immigration programs (ie. TFW) that have been broken because bad actors are aggressively defrauding the government, but I wouldn't say that Canada's system is broken beyond that. I'm skeptical that an increase in so called "low skill" workers are even a problem considering that the country is experiencing labour shortages that have contributed to construction costs being so out of whack that building new buildings is unviable. Now we've "solved" that problem by turning immigration down to zero but that is a kludge and not an actual long term solution to systemic problems. It's pretty hard be critical of the need for supposed "low skill" immigration when pretty much all of our settler ancestors were penniless dirt farmers.
  - inglor_cz 9mo ago
    Construction is not really a low-skill profession anymore, and needs highly qualified workforce to thrive. Buildings of 2026 are de facto complicated industrial robots.
  - poncho_romero 9mo ago
    I agree for the most part. I said immigration is broken, but really the problems are almost exclusively to do with the TFW program and degree mills. One area the TFW program has hurt the country, is in the significant reduction in the number of jobs available to high school students. Anecdotally, I know of many high school students who have been unable to find any work for years, and a stop into any local fast food restaurant or superstore will back that up. These kids looking for part time jobs don't show up in unemployment numbers. They could help the labour shortage, but instead are silently being added to it, in favour of temporary foreign workers filling the positions. We do need immigration long term for sure! Canada is and will always be an immigrant country. That said, I also don't think an appeal to the past (the fact that almost all of our ancestors came as penniless farmers) should enter into the conversation. To my view, this is a dispassionate conversation about politics. Concerns over hypocrisy are irrelevant.
    - Tiktaalik 9mo ago
      Don't take it as an appeal to the past but rather the notion that even people with "low skills" are enormously valuable to building a country.

> collectively our greatest fear Citation very much needed. This sounds like _your_ concern that you're trying to launder through projecting onto the rest of the country.

breitling 9mo ago

Here ya go bud: https://abacusdata.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Slide6-1.png https://abacusdata.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Slide6-1.pn... It is one of the top 5 issues for ALL Canadians.

uv-depression 9mo ago
Leaving aside the fact that this is a single picture of a chart with no source provided (or sample size, or methodology)... that's eighth on that chart, not fifth, and just says "immigration" with no further detail.
dyauspitr 9mo ago
Number 8 on the list?

poncho_romero 9mo ago

Canada as a whole has been pro immigration for a long time, but our immigration system was broken in recent years, and the most visible consequence of that has been an enormous increase in low skill, low wage Indian workers. A lot of people who have never had issues with immigration policy before have become very anti Indian immigration as a result.

uv-depression 9mo ago
> A lot of people who have never had issues with immigration policy before have become very anti Indian immigration as a result. So we just let racists determine national policy now? I wonder how that's working out in the US.
- poncho_romero 9mo ago
  You don't understand, and your unwillingness to approach this issue with the nuance it deserves will only drive people towards right-wing extremists. These people are not racists! The federal government increased immigration (largely of TFWs and students) by far too much, and that has put an enormous strain on Canada's housing and job market. Canadians are turning against broken immigration policy, which has naturally become associated with its most visible aspect--the recently arrived, unskilled Indian worker. You must understand the negative sentiment is driven by association with bad government policy, not naive racism towards Indians. Of course, none of this is the fault of individual immigrants or TFWs, but they are part of the problem, because they are symptoms of it. Racism is a serious allegation. Let's not cry wolf when there is a reasonable explanation here.
  - uv-depression 9mo ago
    How else am I to interpret someone seeing a group of people working low wage jobs and concluding that everyone from their country is a bad influence? > will only drive people towards right-wing extremists The right talks a big game about personal responsibility, but somehow their worst beliefs are always someone else's fault. Funny, that. > naturally become associated Now see, that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's _not_ natural or inevitable.
    - poncho_romero 9mo ago
      No one said "everyone from their country is a bad influence." Indians were viewed as model immigrants in Canada for decades. Again, their good name is being tarred due to bad government policy. My point is is that if leftists cannot talk about immigration policy in a nuanced way, right-wing extremists (for there are no other kinds of right wingers these days) will be the only game in town, and people who want to talk about immigration policy will therefore be drawn towards them. Humans see patterns in everything, that's how we work. You can be a naive idealist all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that people will inevitably associate the effects of a bad policy with the policy itself.
Tiktaalik 9mo ago
I think there's some particular niche immigration programs (ie. TFW) that have been broken because bad actors are aggressively defrauding the government, but I wouldn't say that Canada's system is broken beyond that. I'm skeptical that an increase in so called "low skill" workers are even a problem considering that the country is experiencing labour shortages that have contributed to construction costs being so out of whack that building new buildings is unviable. Now we've "solved" that problem by turning immigration down to zero but that is a kludge and not an actual long term solution to systemic problems. It's pretty hard be critical of the need for supposed "low skill" immigration when pretty much all of our settler ancestors were penniless dirt farmers.
- inglor_cz 9mo ago
  Construction is not really a low-skill profession anymore, and needs highly qualified workforce to thrive. Buildings of 2026 are de facto complicated industrial robots.
- poncho_romero 9mo ago
  I agree for the most part. I said immigration is broken, but really the problems are almost exclusively to do with the TFW program and degree mills. One area the TFW program has hurt the country, is in the significant reduction in the number of jobs available to high school students. Anecdotally, I know of many high school students who have been unable to find any work for years, and a stop into any local fast food restaurant or superstore will back that up. These kids looking for part time jobs don't show up in unemployment numbers. They could help the labour shortage, but instead are silently being added to it, in favour of temporary foreign workers filling the positions. We do need immigration long term for sure! Canada is and will always be an immigrant country. That said, I also don't think an appeal to the past (the fact that almost all of our ancestors came as penniless farmers) should enter into the conversation. To my view, this is a dispassionate conversation about politics. Concerns over hypocrisy are irrelevant.
  - Tiktaalik 9mo ago
    Don't take it as an appeal to the past but rather the notion that even people with "low skills" are enormously valuable to building a country.