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The US is no longer in competition for that talent pool by its own deliberate actions. Might we see a European flowering as the US chokes itself into a regiona
by Espressosaurus 9mo ago
The US is no longer in competition for that talent pool by its own deliberate actions.
Might we see a European flowering as the US chokes itself into a regional power?
- fooker 9mo agoSure, if they want to pay decent salaries. But no, you can make 3-4x in the US. That’s not an exaggeration. And before someone says ‘free healthcare’, big-tech employers in the US provide pretty nice insurance for employees that caps maximum out of pocket expenses to about a week of your salary. EU (except Zurich and London) tech salaries have sort of stagnated to a point that you make about the same in Bangalore, and spend significantly more.
- piperswe 9mo agoConveniently enough, neither Zurich nor London are in the EU anyways!
- fooker 9mo agoYou’re right, I meant Europe. But makes me wonder if EU policies are contributing to wage stagnation. There had been several high profile cases in the US about wage stagnation, so much that tech companies are a bit wary of this topic.
- foldr 9mo agoSurely you mean wage suppression (as in e.g. the unlawful agreement between Apple and Google).
- fooker 9mo agoThey are the same thing. In silicon valley, you can not afford to underpay good engineers, as they'll move across the street and get a job that pays double after a year. In most other places, this ecosystem does not exist because it is ridiculously difficult to start and operate a company unless you are part of some conglomerate.
- lawn 9mo agoAdd free education and childcare to the mix and the difference shrinks quite a bit. Not to mention the fascism problem of course.
- fooker 9mo agoFree education and childcare doesn’t come close to shrinking a 300k USD gap in total compensation. Real number in my case, I looked into moving to Berlin last year. > Not to mention the fascism problem of course. Agreed. The US is going in a terrible direction with this. I hope Europe has learned from history and won’t follow.
- lostlogin 9mo ago> I hope Europe has learned from history and won’t follow. France was recently an absolute inspiration in this regard. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgrlxn4ngdgo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgrlxn4ngdgo
- surgical_fire 9mo agoI could make 2x-3x if I moved to the US. Turns out I can live a pretty comfortable life with EU salary. I could afford a house, car, family. Quality of Life is pretty great. I am not sure if the extra money in the US would be worth it.
- fooker 9mo agoYou are right, going the other way can be tough though. There are hobbies and interests you can pursue with a tech salary in the US that are somewhat out of reach in Europe without generational wealth.
- burnerzzzzz 9mo agoCurious: What hobbies etc are out of reach on an EU tech salary?
- idle_zealot 9mo ago> But no, you can make 3-4x in the US. That’s not an exaggeration Eh, we'll see how long that lasts as the transition from financial capital to global pariah progresses. It's quite possible that our labor is extremely overvalued.
- fooker 9mo agoRight now it relies on silicon valley's ability to churn out unicorns again and again. That part seems to be taking an ugly turn nowadays by a bunch of military AI/drone swarm/etc focused startups. I'm guessing that eventually after the Apple/Google model of making money is dead, you'll have to work for Skynet if you want to make money.
- jltsiren 9mo agoThose "decent salaries" have caused a lot of trouble in the US. They are probably not that good for the society, even if they attract foreign talent. There is not much difference in labor share of GDP between the US and the EU. People who work for living get a similar share of the value they create in both blocks on the average (maybe a bit less in the US), but it's less evenly distributed in the US. Top 10% earners are now responsible for ~50% of consumer spending. That doesn't mean billionaires and capitalists, but upper middle class professionals and other high earners. The economy is great on the average, but most people don't feel it.
- fooker 9mo ago> They are probably not that good for the society I don't disagree, as in an abstract sense inequality is bad for society. Try to understand why the US has high tech salaries though. It is because the last 40 years have made it pretty easy and convenient to start companies. Hence, good employees always have great options or can just start their own companies.
- overfeed 9mo ago> Try to understand why the US has high tech salaries though. It is because the last 40 years have made it pretty easy and convenient to start companies. I thought this was because US trade and foreign policy coerced most of the world to open up their markets to high-margin American services via treaties. It's easy to pay high salaries when you're vacuuming money from around the world, and your product (software) has very low marginal cost of replication.
- ponector 9mo agoAnd it's really hard to land a job in Switzerland simply because there is a small market with tendency to offshore everything except high management. Swissre, UBS and many others all have open positions in Spain/Poland/India, not actually in Switzerland
- MichaelZuo 9mo agoActual formal engineering jobs in Switzerland come with benefits gold plating better than full federal government employees in the USA. And they’re almost as hard to sack. Nobody gives out positions like that easily to non geniuses. And even for more ordinary very smart candidates, there are enough of them to have a few hoops to jump through.
- verzali 9mo agoLosing a week of salary is still pretty bad. How many days off do you get? Days that you can actually take without losing the chance for a promotion?
- fooker 9mo ago> Losing a week of salary is still pretty bad Keep in mind the salary is 3-5x for big tech positions with 5+ years of experience. Check levels.fyi if you don’t believe me. > Days that you can actually take without losing the chance for a promotion? Europe wins hands down on this. I happen to have a great employer where I have taken 4-5 weeks off a year without issues, but that’s not the norm in the US.
- PlatoIsADisease 9mo agoThat isn't at all what I'm seeing. I still have people from Europe asking me to sponsor their H1B.
- skinnymuch 9mo agoThat’s not true. Trump will be gone in a few years. Soft power and destabilizing many countries has done wonders for US hegemony.
- lostlogin 9mo agoThe soft power stuff has been canned. That has not generated good will, but that act pales compared to kidnapping, threats to invade various places and the destabilising effects of chaos as a leadership strategy.
- skinnymuch 9mo agoThe US has done those stuff since world war 2 ended. Continuously. Trump has hurt things but if anything bringing up things the US has always done as if it is novel under Trump shows how well US hegemony works and will continue to work. Another thing no one is bringing up is how colonized minds works. Colonized minds don’t suddenly become uncolonized because of a brash leader.
- zeroc8 9mo agoI believe the damage is done and there will be no going back to the old ways. This time around I'm sensing a real change in attitude. People in Europe are sick and tired of all the US bullshit that's been going on for far too long. It's not just the lunatic in the White House. It's the whole system that's being rejected. The endless greed. The bigotry. The war on everything. Peaceful cooperation and coexistence, that's what we want. I'm for my part quite happy and optimistic about the deal with India and I hope more regions will follow soon.
- poncho_romero 9mo agoAgreed. See also Mark Carney saying "this is a rupture, not a transition" at Davos. We aren't going back.
- saulpw 9mo agoWell said.