4 ms·

Don't know about who exactly are the 'leftists' you are referring to but here's my take : Palestine : Dont send bombs. Send Aid. Lift blockade so Palestinians

by epsters 8mo ago

Don't know about who exactly are the 'leftists' you are referring to but here's my take : Palestine : Dont send bombs. Send Aid. Lift blockade so Palestinians dont suffer. Iran : Dont send bombs. Send Aid. Lift sanctions so Iranian people dont suffer. Interested to hear your take regarding the same.

busterarm 8mo ago
Lifting sanctions just helps the mullahs flex their power on Iranian civilians. Lifted sanctions means more suffering for Iranian people and people abroad suffering from Iran-funded terrorist groups.
- js8 8mo ago
  > Lifting sanctions just helps the mullahs flex their power on Iranian civilians I am not sure how you're imagining this. Showing that they can buy an American iPhone, for example, is a worse "flex of power" than killing 30k protestors? I just don't get what is the supposed power flex without sanctions gonna be. The purpose of sanctions is (everytime) actually different. It's to break the civilians so they would revolt against the government. So with sanctions, you're hurting civilians by definition. It might be "for the greater good", but it's certainly amoral approach in my book.
- krainboltgreene 8mo ago
  This is such an absurd analysis that it is bewildering anyone would post it.
  - busterarm 8mo ago
    Lifting the sanctions doesn't suddenly make their government, regulation or economy stable. Their biggest companies are all government-owned and famously corrupt and mismanaged. This is criticism given from most of the region when the topic of lifting sanctions comes up. Nothing I said is novel or extreme. In fact, we have direct evidence of what happens when those sanctions are lifted from when it was done under the Biden administration. They expanded their nuclear program and expanded funding to their regional proxies to carry out terror campaigns. The Houthis attacked global shipping lines and October 7th happened. That's not theoretical. Btw, I'm of Iranian descent.
    - krainboltgreene 8mo ago
      > Lifting the sanctions doesn't suddenly make their government, regulation or economy stable True we only sanction them because it's funny. I don't really care what descent you are, anyone can have a bad opinion of American foreign policy. There are tons of people right now in America who are Iranian that are screaming for a crazy monarch to take power.
      - busterarm 8mo ago
        It's fun to be reminded boards like this can have extremists that think they're in the majority. Sanctions against Iran are imposed by the United Nations (also the US, UK and EU). That means that UN member states think that sanctions against Iran are politically palatable. It's definitionally mainstream opinion that Iran should be sanctioned.
        krainboltgreene 8mo ago
        And? Realizing that you can't convince me that punishing the population is correct, you fall back to "Well a bunch of nation states are kowtowing to American hegemony" which is frankly pathetic.
        busterarm 8mo ago
        I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You argued that my position was so absurd that no reasonable person would express it. I'm just pointing out that that's the position of the majority of the world's governments and quite mainstream. Your statement was just blatantly false and slightly defamatory.
    - wsve 8mo ago
      > October 7th happened. This is a weird thing to say to me. You're saying that keeping sanctions on Iran is important to prevent another October 7 because Iran was funding Hamas? Okay, but then wouldn't it be better to put sanctions on Israel, since they're the aggressive, colonizing, occupying force?
- epsters 8mo ago
  'To help the civillians we must starve them with total economic sanctions until they overthow their government' comes off as cynical and depraved (in hindsight of similar actions in Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan and also Iran ) and i no longer subscribe to it.
  - jopsen 8mo ago
    I'm not sure it's about helping get civilians. Sanctions for Iran is about limiting their economic growth. So that they are less effective should they try to attack their neighbors. Civilians in a dictatorship are probably not entirely with responsibility for the regime actions either. Regimes can rarely survive without supporters.
dartharva 8mo ago
And why should liberal countries trade with genocidal regimes, so that they don't kill their own people? Is that seriously what you're proposing - appease the bully?
namlem 8mo ago
A lot of Iranians would probably love for us to send weapons. There are videos of Iranians celebrating the bombings of IRGC bases during the 12-day war.
diedyesterday 8mo ago
Your simplistic recipe shows you don't understand the situation and way for improvement in either case.
- wsve 8mo ago
  What part of the previous comment do you think is so ridiculous?

by epsters 8mo ago

busterarm 8mo ago

Lifting sanctions just helps the mullahs flex their power on Iranian civilians. Lifted sanctions means more suffering for Iranian people and people abroad suffering from Iran-funded terrorist groups.

js8 8mo ago
> Lifting sanctions just helps the mullahs flex their power on Iranian civilians I am not sure how you're imagining this. Showing that they can buy an American iPhone, for example, is a worse "flex of power" than killing 30k protestors? I just don't get what is the supposed power flex without sanctions gonna be. The purpose of sanctions is (everytime) actually different. It's to break the civilians so they would revolt against the government. So with sanctions, you're hurting civilians by definition. It might be "for the greater good", but it's certainly amoral approach in my book.
krainboltgreene 8mo ago
This is such an absurd analysis that it is bewildering anyone would post it.
- busterarm 8mo ago
  Lifting the sanctions doesn't suddenly make their government, regulation or economy stable. Their biggest companies are all government-owned and famously corrupt and mismanaged. This is criticism given from most of the region when the topic of lifting sanctions comes up. Nothing I said is novel or extreme. In fact, we have direct evidence of what happens when those sanctions are lifted from when it was done under the Biden administration. They expanded their nuclear program and expanded funding to their regional proxies to carry out terror campaigns. The Houthis attacked global shipping lines and October 7th happened. That's not theoretical. Btw, I'm of Iranian descent.
  - krainboltgreene 8mo ago
    > Lifting the sanctions doesn't suddenly make their government, regulation or economy stable True we only sanction them because it's funny. I don't really care what descent you are, anyone can have a bad opinion of American foreign policy. There are tons of people right now in America who are Iranian that are screaming for a crazy monarch to take power.
    - busterarm 8mo ago
      It's fun to be reminded boards like this can have extremists that think they're in the majority. Sanctions against Iran are imposed by the United Nations (also the US, UK and EU). That means that UN member states think that sanctions against Iran are politically palatable. It's definitionally mainstream opinion that Iran should be sanctioned.
      - krainboltgreene 8mo ago
        And? Realizing that you can't convince me that punishing the population is correct, you fall back to "Well a bunch of nation states are kowtowing to American hegemony" which is frankly pathetic.
        busterarm 8mo ago
        I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You argued that my position was so absurd that no reasonable person would express it. I'm just pointing out that that's the position of the majority of the world's governments and quite mainstream. Your statement was just blatantly false and slightly defamatory.
  - wsve 8mo ago
    > October 7th happened. This is a weird thing to say to me. You're saying that keeping sanctions on Iran is important to prevent another October 7 because Iran was funding Hamas? Okay, but then wouldn't it be better to put sanctions on Israel, since they're the aggressive, colonizing, occupying force?
epsters 8mo ago
'To help the civillians we must starve them with total economic sanctions until they overthow their government' comes off as cynical and depraved (in hindsight of similar actions in Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan and also Iran ) and i no longer subscribe to it.
- jopsen 8mo ago
  I'm not sure it's about helping get civilians. Sanctions for Iran is about limiting their economic growth. So that they are less effective should they try to attack their neighbors. Civilians in a dictatorship are probably not entirely with responsibility for the regime actions either. Regimes can rarely survive without supporters.

dartharva 8mo ago

And why should liberal countries trade with genocidal regimes, so that they don't kill their own people? Is that seriously what you're proposing - appease the bully?

namlem 8mo ago

A lot of Iranians would probably love for us to send weapons. There are videos of Iranians celebrating the bombings of IRGC bases during the 12-day war.

diedyesterday 8mo ago

Your simplistic recipe shows you don't understand the situation and way for improvement in either case.

wsve 8mo ago
What part of the previous comment do you think is so ridiculous?