4 ms·

No one who is sane is saying that. IDF is saying – we killed 40.000 combatants who were hiding in ciivilan infrastructure, so unfortunately 1:1 civilian deaths

by gryzzly 9mo ago

No one who is sane is saying that. IDF is saying – we killed 40.000 combatants who were hiding in ciivilan infrastructure, so unfortunately 1:1 civilian deaths happened, becaue of the terrorist urban warfare tactics hamas and palestinian islamic jihad are using.

lukan 9mo ago
Except of course, the IDF high command officially gave the order to "give up all restraint".
- gryzzly 9mo ago
  were you serving in the last two years and received this order? none of my friends or family have.
  - gilrain 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - gryzzly 9mo ago
      [flagged]
      - Cthulhu_ 9mo ago
        Said home was forcefully taken though. Legally / internationally Israel was allotted certain land (without the inhabitants getting a say) after WW2, but they quickly decided (on their own) that it wasn't enough and they started invading / colonizing land outside of what they were given. If you're wondering why palestinians are angry, there's your answer.
        neoromantique 9mo ago
        >but they quickly decided (on their own) that it wasn't enough and they started invading And the 6 Arab armies were just hanging around in there, yeah?
        idop 9mo ago
        > Said home was forcefully taken though. Prove it.
    - gryzzly 9mo ago
      [flagged]
    - kakacik 9mo ago
      @mods this is unacceptable behavior (but such threads are full of this), blind fanatics on both sides
      - lukan 9mo ago
        Flag and move on (if you can, I feel your frustration). @mods does not notify anyone.
  - lukan 9mo ago
    https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203447 https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203447 "On 9 October 2023, Mr Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister of Israel, announced that he had ordered a “complete siege” of Gaza City and that there would be “no electricity, no food, no fuel” and that “everything [was] closed”. On the following day, Minister Gallant stated, speaking to Israeli troops on the Gaza border: “I have released all restraints . . . You saw what we are fighting against. We are fighting human animals. This is the ISIS of Gaza. This is what we are fighting against . . . Gaza won’t return to what it was before. There will be no Hamas. We will eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week, it will take weeks or even months, we will reach all places.”
    - gryzzly 9mo ago
      Do you see how it refers to Hamas? What should this quote prove? To me it proves that high command gives fighters motivational speeches, nothing else. Also, the measures concluded in the end of the document are about ensuring this was a motivational speech for soldiers that are going to fight Hamas terrorists, not a vague statement.
      - lukan 9mo ago
        Do you also believe all people in Gaza are Hamas? If not, I don't see him making that distinction, by stating to block all food from entering Gaza and dropping all restraints for attacking Hamas. I did not had he impression there ever were restraints when dealing with Hamas. So restraints were always for bystanders. Which were dropped.
        suburban_strike 9mo ago
        [flagged]
    - kvgr 9mo ago
      No thing wrong with. They fought Hamas.
      - 9mo ago
  - MSFT_Edging 9mo ago
    Members of the IDF were regularly posting open admissions and even videos of actual war crimes to social media. It was so common, the IDF had to beg them numerous times to stop. This was the primary method for groups like the Hind Rajab foundation, to locate these war criminals while they were vacationing in other countries to have them arrested on war crime charges. They didn't need orders, they simply were never told no.
    - gryzzly 9mo ago
      [flagged]
      - MSFT_Edging 9mo ago
        > saying israelis No, the IDF has been built up as an occupation force. Therefore, they do occupation force things, like shoot through fences at children, destroy ambulances, post on instagram "I am blowing up this block of civilian housing in revenge for my friend" which is two explicit war-crimes. I think Israel as a nation has to contend with the level of violence they have permitted to happen to those who they have dehumanized as they've continued to maintain an apartheid state, seize land, and kill without any kind of accountability.
chimprich 9mo ago
> becaue of the terrorist urban warfare tactics hamas and palestinian islamic jihad are using This is ridiculous. I don't want to be a Hamas apologist; they're certainly brutally cynical enough to use civilians as shields, but in the case of Gaza, what else would you expect them to do? Urban areas are strong defensive structures, and 75% of Gaza is urban. Where else would you expect them to fight? It would be unrealistic to expect Hamas to take on the IDF in open farmland so they could be annihilated by Israeli air power.
- hersko 9mo ago
  So they started a war they knew would cause mass death to their civilian population. How is that not the same thing?
  - chimprich 9mo ago
    You can't give all the blame for the deaths to Hamas. They gave Israel a monstrous provocation, but the decision to kill tens of thousands of civilians, and collective punishment by denial of food, water and medical care was the Israeli government's. If party A is using a human shield, and party B decides to kill the human shield to get revenge on party A, then who is culpable for the death? I don't think it's an entirely obvious answer. I don't think anyone who can easily and automatically put all the blame on party A or B has really thought it through.
    - hersko 9mo ago
      This is not revenge, this is war. Until Hamas surrenders (they haven't) they are responsible for the civilian deaths.

by gryzzly 9mo ago

lukan 9mo ago

Except of course, the IDF high command officially gave the order to "give up all restraint".

gryzzly 9mo ago
were you serving in the last two years and received this order? none of my friends or family have.
- gilrain 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - gryzzly 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - Cthulhu_ 9mo ago
      Said home was forcefully taken though. Legally / internationally Israel was allotted certain land (without the inhabitants getting a say) after WW2, but they quickly decided (on their own) that it wasn't enough and they started invading / colonizing land outside of what they were given. If you're wondering why palestinians are angry, there's your answer.
      - neoromantique 9mo ago
        >but they quickly decided (on their own) that it wasn't enough and they started invading And the 6 Arab armies were just hanging around in there, yeah?
      - idop 9mo ago
        > Said home was forcefully taken though. Prove it.
  - gryzzly 9mo ago
    [flagged]
  - kakacik 9mo ago
    @mods this is unacceptable behavior (but such threads are full of this), blind fanatics on both sides
    - lukan 9mo ago
      Flag and move on (if you can, I feel your frustration). @mods does not notify anyone.
- lukan 9mo ago
  https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203447 https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203447 "On 9 October 2023, Mr Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister of Israel, announced that he had ordered a “complete siege” of Gaza City and that there would be “no electricity, no food, no fuel” and that “everything [was] closed”. On the following day, Minister Gallant stated, speaking to Israeli troops on the Gaza border: “I have released all restraints . . . You saw what we are fighting against. We are fighting human animals. This is the ISIS of Gaza. This is what we are fighting against . . . Gaza won’t return to what it was before. There will be no Hamas. We will eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week, it will take weeks or even months, we will reach all places.”
  - gryzzly 9mo ago
    Do you see how it refers to Hamas? What should this quote prove? To me it proves that high command gives fighters motivational speeches, nothing else. Also, the measures concluded in the end of the document are about ensuring this was a motivational speech for soldiers that are going to fight Hamas terrorists, not a vague statement.
    - lukan 9mo ago
      Do you also believe all people in Gaza are Hamas? If not, I don't see him making that distinction, by stating to block all food from entering Gaza and dropping all restraints for attacking Hamas. I did not had he impression there ever were restraints when dealing with Hamas. So restraints were always for bystanders. Which were dropped.
      - suburban_strike 9mo ago
        [flagged]
  - kvgr 9mo ago
    No thing wrong with. They fought Hamas.
    - 9mo ago
- MSFT_Edging 9mo ago
  Members of the IDF were regularly posting open admissions and even videos of actual war crimes to social media. It was so common, the IDF had to beg them numerous times to stop. This was the primary method for groups like the Hind Rajab foundation, to locate these war criminals while they were vacationing in other countries to have them arrested on war crime charges. They didn't need orders, they simply were never told no.
  - gryzzly 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - MSFT_Edging 9mo ago
      > saying israelis No, the IDF has been built up as an occupation force. Therefore, they do occupation force things, like shoot through fences at children, destroy ambulances, post on instagram "I am blowing up this block of civilian housing in revenge for my friend" which is two explicit war-crimes. I think Israel as a nation has to contend with the level of violence they have permitted to happen to those who they have dehumanized as they've continued to maintain an apartheid state, seize land, and kill without any kind of accountability.

chimprich 9mo ago

> becaue of the terrorist urban warfare tactics hamas and palestinian islamic jihad are using This is ridiculous. I don't want to be a Hamas apologist; they're certainly brutally cynical enough to use civilians as shields, but in the case of Gaza, what else would you expect them to do? Urban areas are strong defensive structures, and 75% of Gaza is urban. Where else would you expect them to fight? It would be unrealistic to expect Hamas to take on the IDF in open farmland so they could be annihilated by Israeli air power.

hersko 9mo ago
So they started a war they knew would cause mass death to their civilian population. How is that not the same thing?
- chimprich 9mo ago
  You can't give all the blame for the deaths to Hamas. They gave Israel a monstrous provocation, but the decision to kill tens of thousands of civilians, and collective punishment by denial of food, water and medical care was the Israeli government's. If party A is using a human shield, and party B decides to kill the human shield to get revenge on party A, then who is culpable for the death? I don't think it's an entirely obvious answer. I don't think anyone who can easily and automatically put all the blame on party A or B has really thought it through.
  - hersko 9mo ago
    This is not revenge, this is war. Until Hamas surrenders (they haven't) they are responsible for the civilian deaths.