3 ms·

We have not learnt anything from the war on drugs, even though many people compare social media to drugs.

by johnisgood 9mo ago

gjadi 9mo ago
It's much easier to forbid something to a subset of the population than to the population at large.
thrance 9mo ago
That comparison is misguided. You can stop social media abruptly and not feel any withdrawal.
- Nursie 9mo ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/perth/comments/1pmvcml/my_14yo_is_losing_it_over_the_social_media_ban/ https://www.reddit.com/r/perth/comments/1pmvcml/my_14yo_is_l... I think it depends on your definition of withdrawal, but it seems that some teens did experience something analagous to it here in Australia. I think this counts in favour of the ban, myself.
  - heavyset_go 9mo ago
    Being discriminated against by the government sucks, and so does getting locked out of the main way the world communicates in the 21st century. I don't blame a 14 year old for not handling a violation of their rights in a mature manner.
    - Nursie 9mo ago
      Or, just hear me out, or it might be actual withdrawal symptoms as the source of dopamine spikes is withdrawn, which is what it seems to look like.
      - heavyset_go 9mo ago
        Or, just hear me out, this is what a moral panic looks like on social media. I'm going to be honest: I don't believe the story, it reads exactly like what someone who banned their kids from video games, TV or texting would say 20 years ago, even if the kid didn't have what everyone, including you, is assuming is an "addiction", despite being wholly unqualified to diagnose such a thing, let alone over the internet through a 2nd hand story lol. To quote the top replies to that thread: > Ironic that OP turns to social media for support because her kid’s access to said support has been removed. And > We need to remember that this is the societal structure of their world and it is also the only one they have ever known - then in a single evening, it was gone. But also, not for everyone; so injustice is now mixed in to the equation. > She's going to need time to adjust and she's also going to need ways to stay in contact with her friends, because at the end of the day that is what she is upset about: the loss of social contact. I'd examine why you're so willing to believe what you read on social media despite the lack of real data and evidence towards the claims you're accepting at face value.
        Nursie 9mo ago
        > Or, just hear me out, this is what a moral panic looks like on social media. Could be, could be, except moral panics are usually absent evidence, whereas here we have meta's own researchers discovering and attempting to suppress the knowledge that people become addicted - https://www.nationalreview.com/news/meta-researchers-privately-compared-instagram-to-addictive-drug-bombshell-court-filing-shows/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/meta-researchers-private... Or evidence that "Company documents cited in the complaint described several Meta officials acknowledging the company designed its products to exploit shortcomings in youthful psychology" - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/27/meta-instagram-facebook-kids-addicted-lawsuit https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/27/meta-inst... There's also research into its mental health consequences (a single example of many pieces of research available) - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36219756/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36219756/ And legal opinions (the references on this one are good and contain further information on the poor mental health outcomes associated with youth social media use) - https://law.stanford.edu/2024/05/20/social-media-addiction-and-mental-health-the-growing-concern-for-youth-well-being/ https://law.stanford.edu/2024/05/20/social-media-addiction-a... Not to mention ongoing courtcases etc. Dismissing this as "moral panic" seems wrong with that background of well-grounded concern. > To quote the top replies to that thread: Those are neither the best nor the top replies, why did you feel the need to misrepresent that? > I'd examine why you're so willing to believe what you read on social media despite the lack of real data and evidence towards the claims you're accepting at face value. I'd examine why you're so keen to ignore the real data and evidence in favour of your moral panic theory.
  - thrance 9mo ago
    It's certainly an interesting story. I'd still take it with a grain of salt, as often this kind of Reddit family story is closer to an exercise in creative writing than anything else, but that's besides the point. I remember a communication by the World Health Organization that concluded that social media and video games are not addictive like drugs are, because they don't cause chemical withdrawal when immediately stopped. Maybe what this mother is actually witnessing is her daughter suddenly feeling socially excluded after having filled the void by social media until now?
    - Nursie 9mo ago
      Where exactly the line is between 'withdrawal' and anxiety caused by a sudden, non-voluntary change in habits, I'm not sure, but I'd say that the one looks very like a symptom of the other. If we're willing to admit gambling to the list of things that can be addictive, then I'm not sure why other dopamine-related compulsive activities shouldn't be treated the same. Restlessness is well known as a gambling withdrawal symptom.
      - johnisgood 9mo ago
        If everything that people do out of habit and like and you taking it away causes withdrawal, then .... What is the significance of this at this point?
        Nursie 9mo ago
        I'm not sure that "everything that people do out of habit" is a reasonable summation of the category we're talking about. Perhaps I misworded my post above. Gambling is known to be addictive and causes some symptoms of withdrawal when stopped suddenly, even though it is not a chemical dependency and doesn't involve introducing a chemical into the body. So if we allow that one chemical-free activity can be addictive, I don't see a particular reason that we should exclude the possibility of other things working that way too. I'm not saying the other poster is wrong that it could be "her daughter suddenly feeling socially excluded after having filled the void by social media", but I think it would be wrong to exclude the possibility that the removal of the dopamine rollercoaster of social media is causing anxiety directly in the way halting gambling does. And the description certainly comes across as someone who is going through a form of withdrawal - it's familiar to me as an ex smoker.
tokioyoyo 9mo ago
Very off-topic, but war on drugs failed in NA, but is successful in East Asia. It really depends on government and how they handle it. I’m not American, but my understanding of war on drugs was also that it wasn’t just about drugs, might be wrong.
- johnisgood 9mo ago
  Yes, decriminalization and harm reduction seems to work in a few places where it has been implemented for ages now. I mean, there are still many places in Europe where you can go to prison for years for smoking weed. The life ruined because you smoked an illegal plant in your own home.

We have not learnt anything from the war on drugs, even though many people compare social media to drugs.

gjadi 9mo ago

It's much easier to forbid something to a subset of the population than to the population at large.

thrance 9mo ago

That comparison is misguided. You can stop social media abruptly and not feel any withdrawal.

Nursie 9mo ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/perth/comments/1pmvcml/my_14yo_is_losing_it_over_the_social_media_ban/ https://www.reddit.com/r/perth/comments/1pmvcml/my_14yo_is_l... I think it depends on your definition of withdrawal, but it seems that some teens did experience something analagous to it here in Australia. I think this counts in favour of the ban, myself.
- heavyset_go 9mo ago
  Being discriminated against by the government sucks, and so does getting locked out of the main way the world communicates in the 21st century. I don't blame a 14 year old for not handling a violation of their rights in a mature manner.
  - Nursie 9mo ago
    Or, just hear me out, or it might be actual withdrawal symptoms as the source of dopamine spikes is withdrawn, which is what it seems to look like.
    - heavyset_go 9mo ago
      Or, just hear me out, this is what a moral panic looks like on social media. I'm going to be honest: I don't believe the story, it reads exactly like what someone who banned their kids from video games, TV or texting would say 20 years ago, even if the kid didn't have what everyone, including you, is assuming is an "addiction", despite being wholly unqualified to diagnose such a thing, let alone over the internet through a 2nd hand story lol. To quote the top replies to that thread: > Ironic that OP turns to social media for support because her kid’s access to said support has been removed. And > We need to remember that this is the societal structure of their world and it is also the only one they have ever known - then in a single evening, it was gone. But also, not for everyone; so injustice is now mixed in to the equation. > She's going to need time to adjust and she's also going to need ways to stay in contact with her friends, because at the end of the day that is what she is upset about: the loss of social contact. I'd examine why you're so willing to believe what you read on social media despite the lack of real data and evidence towards the claims you're accepting at face value.
      - Nursie 9mo ago
        > Or, just hear me out, this is what a moral panic looks like on social media. Could be, could be, except moral panics are usually absent evidence, whereas here we have meta's own researchers discovering and attempting to suppress the knowledge that people become addicted - https://www.nationalreview.com/news/meta-researchers-privately-compared-instagram-to-addictive-drug-bombshell-court-filing-shows/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/meta-researchers-private... Or evidence that "Company documents cited in the complaint described several Meta officials acknowledging the company designed its products to exploit shortcomings in youthful psychology" - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/27/meta-instagram-facebook-kids-addicted-lawsuit https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/27/meta-inst... There's also research into its mental health consequences (a single example of many pieces of research available) - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36219756/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36219756/ And legal opinions (the references on this one are good and contain further information on the poor mental health outcomes associated with youth social media use) - https://law.stanford.edu/2024/05/20/social-media-addiction-and-mental-health-the-growing-concern-for-youth-well-being/ https://law.stanford.edu/2024/05/20/social-media-addiction-a... Not to mention ongoing courtcases etc. Dismissing this as "moral panic" seems wrong with that background of well-grounded concern. > To quote the top replies to that thread: Those are neither the best nor the top replies, why did you feel the need to misrepresent that? > I'd examine why you're so willing to believe what you read on social media despite the lack of real data and evidence towards the claims you're accepting at face value. I'd examine why you're so keen to ignore the real data and evidence in favour of your moral panic theory.
- thrance 9mo ago
  It's certainly an interesting story. I'd still take it with a grain of salt, as often this kind of Reddit family story is closer to an exercise in creative writing than anything else, but that's besides the point. I remember a communication by the World Health Organization that concluded that social media and video games are not addictive like drugs are, because they don't cause chemical withdrawal when immediately stopped. Maybe what this mother is actually witnessing is her daughter suddenly feeling socially excluded after having filled the void by social media until now?
  - Nursie 9mo ago
    Where exactly the line is between 'withdrawal' and anxiety caused by a sudden, non-voluntary change in habits, I'm not sure, but I'd say that the one looks very like a symptom of the other. If we're willing to admit gambling to the list of things that can be addictive, then I'm not sure why other dopamine-related compulsive activities shouldn't be treated the same. Restlessness is well known as a gambling withdrawal symptom.
    - johnisgood 9mo ago
      If everything that people do out of habit and like and you taking it away causes withdrawal, then .... What is the significance of this at this point?
      - Nursie 9mo ago
        I'm not sure that "everything that people do out of habit" is a reasonable summation of the category we're talking about. Perhaps I misworded my post above. Gambling is known to be addictive and causes some symptoms of withdrawal when stopped suddenly, even though it is not a chemical dependency and doesn't involve introducing a chemical into the body. So if we allow that one chemical-free activity can be addictive, I don't see a particular reason that we should exclude the possibility of other things working that way too. I'm not saying the other poster is wrong that it could be "her daughter suddenly feeling socially excluded after having filled the void by social media", but I think it would be wrong to exclude the possibility that the removal of the dopamine rollercoaster of social media is causing anxiety directly in the way halting gambling does. And the description certainly comes across as someone who is going through a form of withdrawal - it's familiar to me as an ex smoker.

tokioyoyo 9mo ago

Very off-topic, but war on drugs failed in NA, but is successful in East Asia. It really depends on government and how they handle it. I’m not American, but my understanding of war on drugs was also that it wasn’t just about drugs, might be wrong.

johnisgood 9mo ago
Yes, decriminalization and harm reduction seems to work in a few places where it has been implemented for ages now. I mean, there are still many places in Europe where you can go to prison for years for smoking weed. The life ruined because you smoked an illegal plant in your own home.