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> and there have been foiled attempts. have there?

amiga386 8mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Failed_airliner_bombings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Failed_airliner_bombi... -> 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_63_(2001) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_63_(2... 2006: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_transatlantic_aircraft_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_transatlantic_aircraft_pl... ... which is what we're discussing here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_repercussions_due_to_the_2006_transatlantic_aircraft_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_repercussions_due_to_... 2009: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_253 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_253 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_transatlantic_aircraft_bomb_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_transatlantic_aircraft_bo... 2016: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daallo_Airlines_Flight_159 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daallo_Airlines_Flight_159 2017: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Australian_aeroplane_bomb_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Australian_aeroplane_bomb...
- sgjohnson 8mo ago
  Literally none of these were foiled by the security circus we all have to go through. If anything, they are evidence that serious attempts are foiled by intelligence services long before the perpetrators get anywhere near an airport, and the others were just incompetent idiots.
  - amiga386 8mo ago
    Nonetheless, I hope you recognise that incompetent idiots beget more incompetent idiots, if they think they'll get away with it. You don't want e.g. a spate of bank robberies, by idiots who've heard that rubbing lemon juice on your face makes you invisible to cameras. It doesn't matter that they'll get obviously get caught, the problem is a spate of idiots attempting bank robberies (because they're filled with confidence they'll succeed) could easily get people killed. I don't like security theatre either, and clearly the whole thing is a job creation program and an excuse for vendors to sell flashy scanner devices. But you need visible deterrents, even if most people know they're theatre. They also act as reassurance for idiots who wouldn't fly otherwise. Idiots' money spends just as well as clever people's money, and there's a lot more idiots out there than clever people. Because we live in a society with a free press, we have the chattering classes asking "what can we do about this threat?", and government is expected to respond. People don't like to hear from the politician "you're idiots, we don't need that, you are no less safe if we do nothing", they like to hear "we're doing XYZ to address this threat, how clever and wonderful you all are, dear citizens, for recognising it. Your safety is my top priority", then we get the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Failed_airliner_bombings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Failed_airliner_bombi... -> 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_63_(2001) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_63_(2... 2006: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_transatlantic_aircraft_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_transatlantic_aircraft_pl... ... which is what we're discussing here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_repercussions_due_to_the_2006_transatlantic_aircraft_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_repercussions_due_to_... 2009: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_253 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_253 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_transatlantic_aircraft_bomb_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_transatlantic_aircraft_bo... 2016: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daallo_Airlines_Flight_159 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daallo_Airlines_Flight_159 2017: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Australian_aeroplane_bomb_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Australian_aeroplane_bomb...

sgjohnson 8mo ago
Literally none of these were foiled by the security circus we all have to go through. If anything, they are evidence that serious attempts are foiled by intelligence services long before the perpetrators get anywhere near an airport, and the others were just incompetent idiots.
- amiga386 8mo ago
  Nonetheless, I hope you recognise that incompetent idiots beget more incompetent idiots, if they think they'll get away with it. You don't want e.g. a spate of bank robberies, by idiots who've heard that rubbing lemon juice on your face makes you invisible to cameras. It doesn't matter that they'll get obviously get caught, the problem is a spate of idiots attempting bank robberies (because they're filled with confidence they'll succeed) could easily get people killed. I don't like security theatre either, and clearly the whole thing is a job creation program and an excuse for vendors to sell flashy scanner devices. But you need visible deterrents, even if most people know they're theatre. They also act as reassurance for idiots who wouldn't fly otherwise. Idiots' money spends just as well as clever people's money, and there's a lot more idiots out there than clever people. Because we live in a society with a free press, we have the chattering classes asking "what can we do about this threat?", and government is expected to respond. People don't like to hear from the politician "you're idiots, we don't need that, you are no less safe if we do nothing", they like to hear "we're doing XYZ to address this threat, how clever and wonderful you all are, dear citizens, for recognising it. Your safety is my top priority", then we get the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism