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Well, it's certainly a "worthless piece of land" (or close) compared to Crimea and all of the other Ukrainian territory Europe sat by and allowed Russia to devo

by _zagj 9mo ago

Well, it's certainly a "worthless piece of land" (or close) compared to Crimea and all of the other Ukrainian territory Europe sat by and allowed Russia to devour since 2014. And even after 2014, Europe still went ahead with Nord Stream 2, anyway.

ceejayoz 9mo ago
This is like arguing I get to steal stuff from my friend's house because their neighbor's house got burgled.
- goodluckchuck 9mo ago
  It's more like helping a friend move house, but he complains about you the whole time you're trying to help, and there's no pizza or beer, and when you ask to have the dusty old bread machine from the attic, they get super possessive and say they'll fight you.
  - ceejayoz 9mo ago
    And in that scenario, taking the bread machine anyways would be theft. Right? You can say "fine, we're not friends anymore", or "that was a dick move", or "why not?" But if you take it, despite being told no, that's clearly a crime here.
    - goodluckchuck 8mo ago
      You're 100% right, but I think the friendship should be more important. I've had friends keep things that I lent them, but that didn't ruin the friendship. I've had friends say mean things, but that didn't ruin the friendship. I've even gotten into a fist fight with one, but tempers calmed and the friendship endured. (I mean, the US fought two wars against England) It's important to know who your friends are, and the knowledge that Europe is not a friend, is worth more to me than Greenland.
      - ceejayoz 8mo ago
        Is it friendly to demand someone else's stuff with the threat of force? Is it friendly to ignore the opinions of the 50k people who live there? Is it friendly to not be satisfied with the clear existing agreements and alliances that already permit US bases there? Would we consider it friendly if Denmark demanded "useless" parts of, say, Nevada, and threatened to wreck our economy and/or invade if we said no? It's genuinely wild to me that you look at the available factual information and go "yep, Europe's being a big meanie here". Trump's threats are not the acts of a friend.
- _zagj 9mo ago
  I'm arguing Europe shouldn't have let Russia steal so much of Ukraine.
  - ceejayoz 9mo ago
    And I'm wondering how that translates to "therefore we get to steal Greenland".
    - _zagj 9mo ago
      It doesn't; you're just dense or deliberately misconstruing my posts to grind your ideological axe. Europe should have checked Russia's aggression in 2014, when it annexed Crimea, not looked the other way and continued business as usual. Now Crimea is effectively gone for good, and Ukraine will be lucky if it gets back any significant quantity of Ukraine that Russia has stolen since 2022. Imagine how Ukrainians must feel, that Europe now is apparently willing to collectively go to war, but over an island in North America, and against the United States (a much more formidable power, militarily and economically than Russia), no less, but not for them.
      - ceejayoz 9mo ago
        > Imagine how Ukrainians must feel, that Europe now is apparently willing to collectively go to war… I suspect they would strongly sympathize with the “we don’t want a bully to violate our treaties and steal our land”. No?

by _zagj 9mo ago

ceejayoz 9mo ago

This is like arguing I get to steal stuff from my friend's house because their neighbor's house got burgled.

goodluckchuck 9mo ago
It's more like helping a friend move house, but he complains about you the whole time you're trying to help, and there's no pizza or beer, and when you ask to have the dusty old bread machine from the attic, they get super possessive and say they'll fight you.
- ceejayoz 9mo ago
  And in that scenario, taking the bread machine anyways would be theft. Right? You can say "fine, we're not friends anymore", or "that was a dick move", or "why not?" But if you take it, despite being told no, that's clearly a crime here.
  - goodluckchuck 8mo ago
    You're 100% right, but I think the friendship should be more important. I've had friends keep things that I lent them, but that didn't ruin the friendship. I've had friends say mean things, but that didn't ruin the friendship. I've even gotten into a fist fight with one, but tempers calmed and the friendship endured. (I mean, the US fought two wars against England) It's important to know who your friends are, and the knowledge that Europe is not a friend, is worth more to me than Greenland.
    - ceejayoz 8mo ago
      Is it friendly to demand someone else's stuff with the threat of force? Is it friendly to ignore the opinions of the 50k people who live there? Is it friendly to not be satisfied with the clear existing agreements and alliances that already permit US bases there? Would we consider it friendly if Denmark demanded "useless" parts of, say, Nevada, and threatened to wreck our economy and/or invade if we said no? It's genuinely wild to me that you look at the available factual information and go "yep, Europe's being a big meanie here". Trump's threats are not the acts of a friend.
_zagj 9mo ago
I'm arguing Europe shouldn't have let Russia steal so much of Ukraine.
- ceejayoz 9mo ago
  And I'm wondering how that translates to "therefore we get to steal Greenland".
  - _zagj 9mo ago
    It doesn't; you're just dense or deliberately misconstruing my posts to grind your ideological axe. Europe should have checked Russia's aggression in 2014, when it annexed Crimea, not looked the other way and continued business as usual. Now Crimea is effectively gone for good, and Ukraine will be lucky if it gets back any significant quantity of Ukraine that Russia has stolen since 2022. Imagine how Ukrainians must feel, that Europe now is apparently willing to collectively go to war, but over an island in North America, and against the United States (a much more formidable power, militarily and economically than Russia), no less, but not for them.
    - ceejayoz 9mo ago
      > Imagine how Ukrainians must feel, that Europe now is apparently willing to collectively go to war… I suspect they would strongly sympathize with the “we don’t want a bully to violate our treaties and steal our land”. No?