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I just wanted to check whether there is any information about the pricing. Is it the same as Qwen Max? Also, I noticed on the pricing page of Alibaba Cloud that

I just wanted to check whether there is any information about the pricing. Is it the same as Qwen Max? Also, I noticed on the pricing page of Alibaba Cloud that the models are significantly cheaper within mainland China. Does anyone know why? https://www.alibabacloud.com/help/en/model-studio/models?spm=a2ty_o06.30285417.0.0.1ef4c9219pMcnN#4c74a7d1841hr https://www.alibabacloud.com/help/en/model-studio/models?spm...

epolanski 8mo ago
I guess they want to partially subsidize local developers? Maybe that's a requirement from whoever funds them, probably public money.
- segmondy 8mo ago
  Seriously? Does Netflix or Spotify cost the same everywhere around the world? They earn less and their buying power is less.
  - epolanski 8mo ago
    Sure so do professional tools like Microsoft teams or compute in different places of the world.
  - vineyardmike 8mo ago
    The costs of Netflix and Spotify are licensing. Offering the subscription at half price to additional users is non-cannibalizing and a way to get more revenue from the same content. The cost of LLMs are the infrastructure. Unless someone can buy/power/run compute cheaper (Google w/ TPUs, locales with cheap electricity, etc), there won't be a meaningful difference in costs.
    - storystarling 8mo ago
      That assumes inference efficiency is static, which isn't really the case. Between aggressive quantization, speculative decoding, and better batching strategies, the cost per token can vary wildly on the exact same hardware. I suspect the margins right now come from architecture choices as much as raw power costs.
KlayLay 8mo ago
It could be that energy is a lot cheaper in China, but it could be other reasons, too.
QianXuesen 8mo ago
There’s a domestic AI price war in China, plus pricing in mainland China benefits from lower cost structures and very substantial government support e.g., local compute power vouchers and subsidies designed to make AI infrastructure cheaper for domestic businesses and widespread adoption. https://www.notebookcheck.net/China-expands-AI-subsidies-with-computing-power-vouchers-to-boost-SME-adoption.1104359.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/China-expands-AI-subsidies-wit...
- chrishare 8mo ago
  All of this is true and credit assignment is hard, but the brutal competition between Chinese firms, especially in manufacturing, differentiates them from and advances them over economies in the west. It makes investment hard as profits are competed away, which is blasphemy in Thiel's worldview, but is excellent for consumers both local and global.
  - specialist 8mo ago
    Yes and: Good for the nations underwriting all that domestic competition. Playbook followed by Japan, South Korea, etc, and most recently China.
yomansat 8mo ago
Slightly off-topic, surveillance Pricing is a term being used more often, whereby even hotel room prices vary based on where you're booking from, what terms you searched for etc. Here's a short video on the subject: https://youtube.com/shorts/vfIqzUrk40k?si=JQsFBtyKTQz5mYYC https://youtube.com/shorts/vfIqzUrk40k?si=JQsFBtyKTQz5mYYC

epolanski 8mo ago

I guess they want to partially subsidize local developers? Maybe that's a requirement from whoever funds them, probably public money.

segmondy 8mo ago
Seriously? Does Netflix or Spotify cost the same everywhere around the world? They earn less and their buying power is less.
- epolanski 8mo ago
  Sure so do professional tools like Microsoft teams or compute in different places of the world.
- vineyardmike 8mo ago
  The costs of Netflix and Spotify are licensing. Offering the subscription at half price to additional users is non-cannibalizing and a way to get more revenue from the same content. The cost of LLMs are the infrastructure. Unless someone can buy/power/run compute cheaper (Google w/ TPUs, locales with cheap electricity, etc), there won't be a meaningful difference in costs.
  - storystarling 8mo ago
    That assumes inference efficiency is static, which isn't really the case. Between aggressive quantization, speculative decoding, and better batching strategies, the cost per token can vary wildly on the exact same hardware. I suspect the margins right now come from architecture choices as much as raw power costs.

KlayLay 8mo ago

It could be that energy is a lot cheaper in China, but it could be other reasons, too.

QianXuesen 8mo ago

There’s a domestic AI price war in China, plus pricing in mainland China benefits from lower cost structures and very substantial government support e.g., local compute power vouchers and subsidies designed to make AI infrastructure cheaper for domestic businesses and widespread adoption. https://www.notebookcheck.net/China-expands-AI-subsidies-with-computing-power-vouchers-to-boost-SME-adoption.1104359.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/China-expands-AI-subsidies-wit...

chrishare 8mo ago
All of this is true and credit assignment is hard, but the brutal competition between Chinese firms, especially in manufacturing, differentiates them from and advances them over economies in the west. It makes investment hard as profits are competed away, which is blasphemy in Thiel's worldview, but is excellent for consumers both local and global.
- specialist 8mo ago
  Yes and: Good for the nations underwriting all that domestic competition. Playbook followed by Japan, South Korea, etc, and most recently China.

yomansat 8mo ago

Slightly off-topic, surveillance Pricing is a term being used more often, whereby even hotel room prices vary based on where you're booking from, what terms you searched for etc. Here's a short video on the subject: https://youtube.com/shorts/vfIqzUrk40k?si=JQsFBtyKTQz5mYYC https://youtube.com/shorts/vfIqzUrk40k?si=JQsFBtyKTQz5mYYC