4 ms·

>It's a very common form of countercultural resistance and therefore an important relief valve. It's a way for anyone to express themselves on their environment

>It's a very common form of countercultural resistance and therefore an important relief valve. It's a way for anyone to express themselves on their environment. So, what are these random scribblers resisting, exactly? It's like saying that defecating on the street is a form of self-expression and "leaving their mark". Even if it is, do we really need to tolerate it? >Not to mention, it's lovely to be connected to a common thread of humanity over literal millenia. There is nothing lovely about seeing all this garbage littering the walls of public buildings and historical finds do not justify this behaviour.

direwolf20 9mo ago
Resisting the ideology that only people with money can alter the city environment. When you see an impressive sculpture or skyscraper you know a lot of resources were spent, you know the rich people here are rich. When you see an area with lots of graffiti, there may be many good or bad things about it, but you know the citizens are free. I would hope graffitiers have respect to only draw on the mundane parts of the city, not on cool sculptures. And in my experience, that is true. Also they should not obscure windows or information signs.
- ZpJuUuNaQ5 9mo ago
  I think the cultural barrier preventing me from understanding this way of thinking is impenetrable to me. What a strange world, huh?
  - direwolf20 9mo ago
    Are you American? Freedom means the ability to do what you want. It doesn't mean owning guns.
    - ZpJuUuNaQ5 9mo ago
      >Are you American? Freedom means the ability to do what you want. It doesn't mean owning guns. No, I am not, and I haven't mentioned guns or even hinted at the topic. Do whatever you want, but trying to purposefully destroy and smear the environment around you and claim it's an expression of freedom is ridiculous. It's just malicious, disgusting behavior that helps no one, serves no cause and has nothing to do with freedom.
      - recursive 9mo ago
        I don't think most graffiti writers are trying to destroy their environment.
    - nmeofthestate 9mo ago
      I'm not American, but I doubt being pro-graffiti is a universal American value. I suspect many Americans aren't that into it, given it makes the place look bad. Many Americans might think instead that you should only deface things you own.
      - direwolf20 9mo ago
        I think it makes the place look like a place where people are free and not oppressed, which is nice.
        lostdog 9mo ago
        They are oppressed by their neighbors, who can scribble all over their home without consequences. Have you had to clean off graffiti?
        direwolf20 9mo ago
        Why would I have to clean it off?
        baud147258 9mo ago
        because you find it ugly? Because the city/HOA is asking? Because it's a political message you don't agree with (or don't want your house to get burned for it)?
        direwolf20 9mo ago
        So I have problems with the government but I blame graffitiers?
        baud147258 9mo ago
        Because if graffitiers didn't degrade your property, you wouldn't have to clean after them?
    - socalgal2 9mo ago
      I'm surprised you don't understand it. Put your money where your mouth is. Let me come over and tag all your property.
      - komali2 9mo ago
        You would be doing so alongside tens of other artists, and then after a month or so I would whitewash the wall, and everyone would start up all over again. Such is street art. Kinda beautiful, how much effort people put into art they know will be gone or changed possibly within a couple days.
  - komali2 9mo ago
    I think that's very exciting for you, because imo it's very rarely we encounter truly challenging problems like this. I understand that you prefer to make up your mind about street artists, but I can assure you as someone that used to hold the same opinion, that opinion is held from a place of unfamiliarity with the culture and the people in it. It was very enlightening for me to step out of my SF tech circle into the street art scene and talk to very, very different people. You may be different but I personally find it very important to challenge my thinking by talking to very different kinds of people.
    - ZpJuUuNaQ5 9mo ago
      >I think that's very exciting for you Random online interactions rarely change anyone's opinions, and you don't have to accept my worldview, and neither I need to accept yours. I am just somewhat saddened that there are people who would defend defacing the city like that, but at the same time, I understand that we are byproducts of our environment. I think I should consider myself lucky that I happen to live in a place which I appreciate. It's not that I am incapable of admiring art or loathe graffiti as a style, but, at least based on my experience, most of it are just cases of vandalism. My city actually have places dedicated to graffiti artists, so that they can create whatever they want freely, but I guess that removes at least some of the fun.
      - direwolf20 9mo ago
        Our environment controls us, and we are also allowed to control our environment. Graffiti is like protesting. The government likes to contain it and deny it and suppress it. Your city probably has a free speech zone where protesting is allowed, which is far out of the way so those protests won't have an audience, but that is not where protests occur when they occur.
        ZpJuUuNaQ5 9mo ago
        >Your city probably has a free speech zone where protesting is allowed, which is far out of the way so those protests won't have an audience, but that is not where protests occur when they occur. What a weird thing to say. I don't know whether you live in some totalitarian regime or assume that you do, but I don't. However, I can see it as means of protesting, an we can find examples of it in history and current day, but most graffiti out there is not that at all.
komali2 9mo ago
> So, what are these random scribblers resisting, exactly? The idea that the city is owned by the uppermost caste of that society. > There is nothing lovely about seeing all this garbage littering the walls of public buildings and historical finds do not justify this behaviour. Massive cathedrals to the rich would be erected and made holy, and individuals upon whose back society is build would demonstrate that though entrance is barred to them, they still can make the thing their own. Nowadays there's plenty of such things in a city that closes its doors to many people that live in said city. San Francisco is a great example of this, where rising costs are pushing anyone not working in tech. Graffiti is an easy way to spit in the face of the rich that are trying to take a city away from you. Clearly, it has an outsized impact on their sensibilities.
- ZpJuUuNaQ5 9mo ago
  To me personally, it sounds really bizarre. I cannot understand this way of thinking, but I guess it's just a matter of cultural differences.
- nmeofthestate 9mo ago
  I suspect most graffiti doesn't actually have this twisted motivation. It's just selfishness by thoughtless people wanting to advertise themselves, like dogs marking their territory. This intellectual rationalisation is more of a projection by resentful people with a poisonous worldview.
  - fwip 9mo ago
    I think you may have agreed with them a long time ago, when you chose your username. Have you perhaps become wealthier, in the interim?
    - browsingonly 9mo ago
      Maybe just more mature.
  - dole 9mo ago
    Commentary is graffiti. We're all selfish dogs marking our territory, advertising that we exist.
nemothekid 9mo ago
>Even if it is, do we really need to tolerate it? People not only tolerate, but I'd argue most people prefer it. I think, unlike Singapore or Tokyo, Americans, in cities, largely prefer a little lived in grime. The Mission Bay is a relatively new neighborhood in San Francisco - mostly free of graffiti and is pretty much sterile, and most people would prefer to live in the Mission rather than Mission Bay. OpenAI likely pays a huge premium to HQ in the mission rather than settling in the more corporate offices of Mission Bay or even the Financial District. I also noticed the same in Berlin - Kreuzberg, Neukolln, and other neighborhoods in East Berlin attract the most people, despite being drenched in graffiti. If ever move to a city in America and tell people you live in the generally clean, spick and span, neighborhood in that city, half the people will look at you like you have 3 heads or simply assume you have no personality. Graffiti has largely become an accepted, or even valued, feature of a neighborhood. I believe internally it separates the "cool" city inhabitants from the "losers" out in the suburbs. Edit: I just looked through all the images in the OP and one of them is a banksy. It's been there for over a decade. Graffiti isn't just tolerated, its practically protected.
- -_- 9mo ago
  What do you mean? OpenAI's main offices have been in Mission Bay since 2024

direwolf20 9mo ago

Resisting the ideology that only people with money can alter the city environment. When you see an impressive sculpture or skyscraper you know a lot of resources were spent, you know the rich people here are rich. When you see an area with lots of graffiti, there may be many good or bad things about it, but you know the citizens are free. I would hope graffitiers have respect to only draw on the mundane parts of the city, not on cool sculptures. And in my experience, that is true. Also they should not obscure windows or information signs.

ZpJuUuNaQ5 9mo ago
I think the cultural barrier preventing me from understanding this way of thinking is impenetrable to me. What a strange world, huh?
- direwolf20 9mo ago
  Are you American? Freedom means the ability to do what you want. It doesn't mean owning guns.
  - ZpJuUuNaQ5 9mo ago
    >Are you American? Freedom means the ability to do what you want. It doesn't mean owning guns. No, I am not, and I haven't mentioned guns or even hinted at the topic. Do whatever you want, but trying to purposefully destroy and smear the environment around you and claim it's an expression of freedom is ridiculous. It's just malicious, disgusting behavior that helps no one, serves no cause and has nothing to do with freedom.
    - recursive 9mo ago
      I don't think most graffiti writers are trying to destroy their environment.
  - nmeofthestate 9mo ago
    I'm not American, but I doubt being pro-graffiti is a universal American value. I suspect many Americans aren't that into it, given it makes the place look bad. Many Americans might think instead that you should only deface things you own.
    - direwolf20 9mo ago
      I think it makes the place look like a place where people are free and not oppressed, which is nice.
      - lostdog 9mo ago
        They are oppressed by their neighbors, who can scribble all over their home without consequences. Have you had to clean off graffiti?
        direwolf20 9mo ago
        Why would I have to clean it off?
        baud147258 9mo ago
        because you find it ugly? Because the city/HOA is asking? Because it's a political message you don't agree with (or don't want your house to get burned for it)?
        direwolf20 9mo ago
        So I have problems with the government but I blame graffitiers?
        baud147258 9mo ago
        Because if graffitiers didn't degrade your property, you wouldn't have to clean after them?
  - socalgal2 9mo ago
    I'm surprised you don't understand it. Put your money where your mouth is. Let me come over and tag all your property.
    - komali2 9mo ago
      You would be doing so alongside tens of other artists, and then after a month or so I would whitewash the wall, and everyone would start up all over again. Such is street art. Kinda beautiful, how much effort people put into art they know will be gone or changed possibly within a couple days.
- komali2 9mo ago
  I think that's very exciting for you, because imo it's very rarely we encounter truly challenging problems like this. I understand that you prefer to make up your mind about street artists, but I can assure you as someone that used to hold the same opinion, that opinion is held from a place of unfamiliarity with the culture and the people in it. It was very enlightening for me to step out of my SF tech circle into the street art scene and talk to very, very different people. You may be different but I personally find it very important to challenge my thinking by talking to very different kinds of people.
  - ZpJuUuNaQ5 9mo ago
    >I think that's very exciting for you Random online interactions rarely change anyone's opinions, and you don't have to accept my worldview, and neither I need to accept yours. I am just somewhat saddened that there are people who would defend defacing the city like that, but at the same time, I understand that we are byproducts of our environment. I think I should consider myself lucky that I happen to live in a place which I appreciate. It's not that I am incapable of admiring art or loathe graffiti as a style, but, at least based on my experience, most of it are just cases of vandalism. My city actually have places dedicated to graffiti artists, so that they can create whatever they want freely, but I guess that removes at least some of the fun.
    - direwolf20 9mo ago
      Our environment controls us, and we are also allowed to control our environment. Graffiti is like protesting. The government likes to contain it and deny it and suppress it. Your city probably has a free speech zone where protesting is allowed, which is far out of the way so those protests won't have an audience, but that is not where protests occur when they occur.
      - ZpJuUuNaQ5 9mo ago
        >Your city probably has a free speech zone where protesting is allowed, which is far out of the way so those protests won't have an audience, but that is not where protests occur when they occur. What a weird thing to say. I don't know whether you live in some totalitarian regime or assume that you do, but I don't. However, I can see it as means of protesting, an we can find examples of it in history and current day, but most graffiti out there is not that at all.

komali2 9mo ago

> So, what are these random scribblers resisting, exactly? The idea that the city is owned by the uppermost caste of that society. > There is nothing lovely about seeing all this garbage littering the walls of public buildings and historical finds do not justify this behaviour. Massive cathedrals to the rich would be erected and made holy, and individuals upon whose back society is build would demonstrate that though entrance is barred to them, they still can make the thing their own. Nowadays there's plenty of such things in a city that closes its doors to many people that live in said city. San Francisco is a great example of this, where rising costs are pushing anyone not working in tech. Graffiti is an easy way to spit in the face of the rich that are trying to take a city away from you. Clearly, it has an outsized impact on their sensibilities.

ZpJuUuNaQ5 9mo ago
To me personally, it sounds really bizarre. I cannot understand this way of thinking, but I guess it's just a matter of cultural differences.
nmeofthestate 9mo ago
I suspect most graffiti doesn't actually have this twisted motivation. It's just selfishness by thoughtless people wanting to advertise themselves, like dogs marking their territory. This intellectual rationalisation is more of a projection by resentful people with a poisonous worldview.
- fwip 9mo ago
  I think you may have agreed with them a long time ago, when you chose your username. Have you perhaps become wealthier, in the interim?
  - browsingonly 9mo ago
    Maybe just more mature.
- dole 9mo ago
  Commentary is graffiti. We're all selfish dogs marking our territory, advertising that we exist.

nemothekid 9mo ago

>Even if it is, do we really need to tolerate it? People not only tolerate, but I'd argue most people prefer it. I think, unlike Singapore or Tokyo, Americans, in cities, largely prefer a little lived in grime. The Mission Bay is a relatively new neighborhood in San Francisco - mostly free of graffiti and is pretty much sterile, and most people would prefer to live in the Mission rather than Mission Bay. OpenAI likely pays a huge premium to HQ in the mission rather than settling in the more corporate offices of Mission Bay or even the Financial District. I also noticed the same in Berlin - Kreuzberg, Neukolln, and other neighborhoods in East Berlin attract the most people, despite being drenched in graffiti. If ever move to a city in America and tell people you live in the generally clean, spick and span, neighborhood in that city, half the people will look at you like you have 3 heads or simply assume you have no personality. Graffiti has largely become an accepted, or even valued, feature of a neighborhood. I believe internally it separates the "cool" city inhabitants from the "losers" out in the suburbs. Edit: I just looked through all the images in the OP and one of them is a banksy. It's been there for over a decade. Graffiti isn't just tolerated, its practically protected.

-_- 9mo ago
What do you mean? OpenAI's main offices have been in Mission Bay since 2024