5 ms·

The push toward LED seems to be primarily for emission target related reasons. It is very hard to buy incandescent bulbs in the UK; even for those of us that ac

The push toward LED seems to be primarily for emission target related reasons. It is very hard to buy incandescent bulbs in the UK; even for those of us that accept the cost implications. Also, many less expensive LEDs flicker at the rate of the frequency supply of the current (ie 240 or 120 Hz). This is very annoying and related to the instantaneous response of LED vs the averaging effect of the alternating current through an actual glowing hot filament. It is interesting to read on the development of blue and white LED technology.

oniony 9mo ago
If I were able to see the flicker of mains supplied LED lighting (which I cannot), then I would be very tempted to install low-voltage DC LED lighting, which presumably does not flicker.
- lightedman 9mo ago
  It only doesn't flicker if there's no power driving circuitry - eg just LEDs and a resistor. Otherwise, if there is a power IC present, there is flicker, though fast enough for most humans to not perceive normally (you can still check it by waving your hand in front of the light and seeing the strobed afterimage.)
  - zahirbmirza 9mo ago
    Yes! And this after image is distracting.
  - mnw21cam 9mo ago
    That's not strictly true. The very simplest of DC LED drivers flicker, such as the classic single-transistor battery saver circuit, but a slightly more complex DC LED driver circuit will not. One of the best ways to drive an LED is with a constant current source, which typically involves putting an inductor in series with the LED and switching the supply to that at a reasonably high frequency, which would mean the LED does not flicker at all.
  - dv_dt 9mo ago
    If it's hooked directly to AC power, isn't there by definition a flicker? With a power IC, a poorly implemented power circuit will also visibly flicker. With high enough rate and the right power characteristics it should not be noticeable. Do you notice flicker in a quality phone or monitor screen?
- stubish 9mo ago
  An AC/DC power converter works the same, either built into the bulb or in a separate unit. But yes, a separate power converter is almost certainly going to do a much better job of removing the 50/60Hz voltage drop. Not sure if it would be cheaper, given the economies of scale on AC bulb manufacture. Higher quality AC bulbs may come out ahead for flicker free lighting.
leoedin 9mo ago
> The push toward LED seems to be primarily for emission target related reasons Is this true? I’ve got LEDs in my house because they cost vastly less to run, and because I rarely have to replace the bulbs. Some cheap LEDs do flicker (at 50 or 60 Hz). But that’s fairly easily solved. I don’t think I’ve noticed the flicker since some cheap bulbs I bought in 2014 or so.
- DeathArrow 9mo ago
  >Is this true? I’ve got LEDs in my house because they cost vastly less to run, and because I rarely have to replace the bulbs. At least in EU is true. Citing from Wikipedia: "The 2005 Ecodesign directive covered energy-using products (EuP), which use, generate, transfer or measure energy, including consumer goods such as boilers, water heaters, computers, televisions, and industrial products such as transformers. The implementing measures focus on those products which have a high potential for reducing greenhouse gas emissions at low cost, through reduced energy demand." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecodesign_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecodesign_Directive
- JKCalhoun 9mo ago
  "I don’t think I’ve noticed the flicker…" Well… (Sorry, let me put my tinfoil hat on.) Yeah, well that noticed part is what is worrisome to me. I do worry that there is some effect on our brains even though we might not perceive the flicker. As an analogy, I got into those supposedly audiophile "Class D" (or "Class T") amplifiers over a decade ago. Every day I turned on the music in my office and coded with the T-amp playing. I would have told you at the time that, indeed, it sounded amazing. Some time later I built a tube amplifier (The Darling [2], in case anyone cares—I've since built perhaps a dozen more). When I brought it into the office and swapped it out for the T-amp, the change was sublime but immediately noticeable. I hate to fall back on audiophile terminology but it's the best I have for the experience: I was suddenly aware of "listening fatigue" that had been a component of the T-amp. I hadn't even known it had been fatiguing until I heard the tube amp in its place for days on end. With the loss of color fidelity and the flickering issue, I'm embarrassed to say that incandescent is starting to look good to me again. I might, as an experiment, replace only those lights that we turn on in the evening when we are relaxing, reading. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-T_amplifier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-T_amplifier [2] https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/darling-1626-amp.414859/ https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/darling-1626-amp.... and https://imgur.com/gallery/oh-darling-tube-amplifier-Lq2Sx https://imgur.com/gallery/oh-darling-tube-amplifier-Lq2Sx
wongarsu 9mo ago
In the EU this was indeed done for energy efficiency/emissions. Incandescent bulbs were gradually banned from normal sale, starting with the most energy hungry (diffused 100W) and gradually expanding until only low-wattage and special-purpose bulbs were left. Special-purpose bulbs cover a large variety for everything where switching didn't make sense, like machine shops or historic buildings. LEDs aren't mandated per se, but they are the most attractive alternative. And because this all happened before brexit the UK has the same rules, unless they revised any of them post-brexit For the most part this was a very positive step. Prices for LED bulbs plunged when they went from the "premium" energy-efficient alternative to the default option. But you also get a lot of crap on the market, and stuffing LEDs in form factors designed for incandescent bulbs makes good electrical and thermal design challenging. Even for those brands that actually try
- fundatus 9mo ago
  > LEDs aren't mandated per se, but they are the most attractive alternative. Yeah, basically what the EU did was to say: For X Watts of electricity at least X Lumen of light has to be produced. And this number was gradually increased. Since old school light bulbs are quite inefficient when it comes to producing light, they slowly had to be phased out.
palmotea 9mo ago
> The push toward LED seems to be primarily for emission target related reasons. It is very hard to buy incandescent bulbs in the UK; even for those of us that accept the cost implications. Can you even buy them without buying new old stock? In the US they're banned and there's zero production. I recall there was a guy in the EU who tried to get around the regulations by selling "heat bulbs" that were exactly the same as traditional incandescent bulbs but marketed as a heat source, but I think he was slapped down.
- wongarsu 9mo ago
  At least in Germany you can still fairly easily get 20W incandescent lamps. Sold as lamps for fridges and ovens, but they are available with standard sockets. If you look around a bit you can also get 60W or 100W lamps, sold as "industrial lamps" or "extreme temperature lamps", labeled as unsuitable for household use. But those are specialty lamps that you won't find in your local supermarket. Not sure if those are new old stock or imported
- nerdponx 9mo ago
  Certain size/watt combos are still available for things like appliances and nightlights, but I think that includes 20W E26/A-something bulbs, and the bulbs for plug-in night lights. I can still find them on the Home Depot and some other places. No idea about quality but I still prefer how they look. There are so many other horrible energy efficiency problems with heating my home that the inefficiency of a few incandescents in key places doesn't bother me in comparison to the enjoyment I get from the nice light.
- mark-r 9mo ago
  In the US they've even banned selling new old stock. I believe that was a recent change within the last few years.
NwtnsMthd 9mo ago
The flickering is solely a result of cost cutting in the power supplies of these LED lights. The problem is totally solvable with a constant current switching power supply. But the filtering circuitry adds cost.
- graemep 9mo ago
  The problem is that consumers usually cannot know this about a particular light (or a lot more) at the point of purchase, so even if you are willing to pay a premium for this you cannot. I would pay a premium for longer life, and at least in some cases (e.g. lights I read by) for better quality. How do I do so? I would love to be pointed at sources of better ones (in the UK).
  - Rebelgecko 9mo ago
    tl;dr: Just buy Philips UltraEfficient (I think these are roughly equivalent to the infamous "Dubai Bulbs"[1]) or Ultra Definition bulbs. They cost a little bit more but will probably pay for themselves over the years. Buy name brands with a history of putting out decent bulbs instead of the Amazon alphabetsoup brands that won't be around in 5 years (although TBF some of my cheap BogAo bulbs are still going strong after 8 years). You can get a good feel for the light's "quality" by looking at the CRI and color temperature. For CRI, anything 90+ is good. For temperature, IMO around 3000k is the sweet spot. go higher if you want sterile operating room vibes or lower if you want super yellow/orange cozy hobbit hole vibes. [1]: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/ https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-li...
    - kelnos 9mo ago
      Heh, funny how personal preference differs. I find 3000K to be just slightly too harsh on my eyes, and prefer 2700K for everywhere except perhaps the bathroom mirror lights.
      - Rebelgecko 9mo ago
fyrn_ 9mo ago
Wouldn't the supply usually be either 50hz or 60hz depending in the country?
- stubish 9mo ago
  Yes, OP incorrectly quoted voltage rather than frequency.

oniony 9mo ago

If I were able to see the flicker of mains supplied LED lighting (which I cannot), then I would be very tempted to install low-voltage DC LED lighting, which presumably does not flicker.

lightedman 9mo ago
It only doesn't flicker if there's no power driving circuitry - eg just LEDs and a resistor. Otherwise, if there is a power IC present, there is flicker, though fast enough for most humans to not perceive normally (you can still check it by waving your hand in front of the light and seeing the strobed afterimage.)
- zahirbmirza 9mo ago
  Yes! And this after image is distracting.
- mnw21cam 9mo ago
  That's not strictly true. The very simplest of DC LED drivers flicker, such as the classic single-transistor battery saver circuit, but a slightly more complex DC LED driver circuit will not. One of the best ways to drive an LED is with a constant current source, which typically involves putting an inductor in series with the LED and switching the supply to that at a reasonably high frequency, which would mean the LED does not flicker at all.
- dv_dt 9mo ago
  If it's hooked directly to AC power, isn't there by definition a flicker? With a power IC, a poorly implemented power circuit will also visibly flicker. With high enough rate and the right power characteristics it should not be noticeable. Do you notice flicker in a quality phone or monitor screen?
stubish 9mo ago
An AC/DC power converter works the same, either built into the bulb or in a separate unit. But yes, a separate power converter is almost certainly going to do a much better job of removing the 50/60Hz voltage drop. Not sure if it would be cheaper, given the economies of scale on AC bulb manufacture. Higher quality AC bulbs may come out ahead for flicker free lighting.

leoedin 9mo ago

> The push toward LED seems to be primarily for emission target related reasons Is this true? I’ve got LEDs in my house because they cost vastly less to run, and because I rarely have to replace the bulbs. Some cheap LEDs do flicker (at 50 or 60 Hz). But that’s fairly easily solved. I don’t think I’ve noticed the flicker since some cheap bulbs I bought in 2014 or so.

DeathArrow 9mo ago
>Is this true? I’ve got LEDs in my house because they cost vastly less to run, and because I rarely have to replace the bulbs. At least in EU is true. Citing from Wikipedia: "The 2005 Ecodesign directive covered energy-using products (EuP), which use, generate, transfer or measure energy, including consumer goods such as boilers, water heaters, computers, televisions, and industrial products such as transformers. The implementing measures focus on those products which have a high potential for reducing greenhouse gas emissions at low cost, through reduced energy demand." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecodesign_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecodesign_Directive
JKCalhoun 9mo ago
"I don’t think I’ve noticed the flicker…" Well… (Sorry, let me put my tinfoil hat on.) Yeah, well that noticed part is what is worrisome to me. I do worry that there is some effect on our brains even though we might not perceive the flicker. As an analogy, I got into those supposedly audiophile "Class D" (or "Class T") amplifiers over a decade ago. Every day I turned on the music in my office and coded with the T-amp playing. I would have told you at the time that, indeed, it sounded amazing. Some time later I built a tube amplifier (The Darling [2], in case anyone cares—I've since built perhaps a dozen more). When I brought it into the office and swapped it out for the T-amp, the change was sublime but immediately noticeable. I hate to fall back on audiophile terminology but it's the best I have for the experience: I was suddenly aware of "listening fatigue" that had been a component of the T-amp. I hadn't even known it had been fatiguing until I heard the tube amp in its place for days on end. With the loss of color fidelity and the flickering issue, I'm embarrassed to say that incandescent is starting to look good to me again. I might, as an experiment, replace only those lights that we turn on in the evening when we are relaxing, reading. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-T_amplifier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-T_amplifier [2] https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/darling-1626-amp.414859/ https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/darling-1626-amp.... and https://imgur.com/gallery/oh-darling-tube-amplifier-Lq2Sx https://imgur.com/gallery/oh-darling-tube-amplifier-Lq2Sx

wongarsu 9mo ago

In the EU this was indeed done for energy efficiency/emissions. Incandescent bulbs were gradually banned from normal sale, starting with the most energy hungry (diffused 100W) and gradually expanding until only low-wattage and special-purpose bulbs were left. Special-purpose bulbs cover a large variety for everything where switching didn't make sense, like machine shops or historic buildings. LEDs aren't mandated per se, but they are the most attractive alternative. And because this all happened before brexit the UK has the same rules, unless they revised any of them post-brexit For the most part this was a very positive step. Prices for LED bulbs plunged when they went from the "premium" energy-efficient alternative to the default option. But you also get a lot of crap on the market, and stuffing LEDs in form factors designed for incandescent bulbs makes good electrical and thermal design challenging. Even for those brands that actually try

fundatus 9mo ago
> LEDs aren't mandated per se, but they are the most attractive alternative. Yeah, basically what the EU did was to say: For X Watts of electricity at least X Lumen of light has to be produced. And this number was gradually increased. Since old school light bulbs are quite inefficient when it comes to producing light, they slowly had to be phased out.

palmotea 9mo ago

> The push toward LED seems to be primarily for emission target related reasons. It is very hard to buy incandescent bulbs in the UK; even for those of us that accept the cost implications. Can you even buy them without buying new old stock? In the US they're banned and there's zero production. I recall there was a guy in the EU who tried to get around the regulations by selling "heat bulbs" that were exactly the same as traditional incandescent bulbs but marketed as a heat source, but I think he was slapped down.

wongarsu 9mo ago
At least in Germany you can still fairly easily get 20W incandescent lamps. Sold as lamps for fridges and ovens, but they are available with standard sockets. If you look around a bit you can also get 60W or 100W lamps, sold as "industrial lamps" or "extreme temperature lamps", labeled as unsuitable for household use. But those are specialty lamps that you won't find in your local supermarket. Not sure if those are new old stock or imported
nerdponx 9mo ago
Certain size/watt combos are still available for things like appliances and nightlights, but I think that includes 20W E26/A-something bulbs, and the bulbs for plug-in night lights. I can still find them on the Home Depot and some other places. No idea about quality but I still prefer how they look. There are so many other horrible energy efficiency problems with heating my home that the inefficiency of a few incandescents in key places doesn't bother me in comparison to the enjoyment I get from the nice light.
mark-r 9mo ago
In the US they've even banned selling new old stock. I believe that was a recent change within the last few years.

NwtnsMthd 9mo ago

The flickering is solely a result of cost cutting in the power supplies of these LED lights. The problem is totally solvable with a constant current switching power supply. But the filtering circuitry adds cost.

graemep 9mo ago
The problem is that consumers usually cannot know this about a particular light (or a lot more) at the point of purchase, so even if you are willing to pay a premium for this you cannot. I would pay a premium for longer life, and at least in some cases (e.g. lights I read by) for better quality. How do I do so? I would love to be pointed at sources of better ones (in the UK).
- Rebelgecko 9mo ago
  tl;dr: Just buy Philips UltraEfficient (I think these are roughly equivalent to the infamous "Dubai Bulbs"[1]) or Ultra Definition bulbs. They cost a little bit more but will probably pay for themselves over the years. Buy name brands with a history of putting out decent bulbs instead of the Amazon alphabetsoup brands that won't be around in 5 years (although TBF some of my cheap BogAo bulbs are still going strong after 8 years). You can get a good feel for the light's "quality" by looking at the CRI and color temperature. For CRI, anything 90+ is good. For temperature, IMO around 3000k is the sweet spot. go higher if you want sterile operating room vibes or lower if you want super yellow/orange cozy hobbit hole vibes. [1]: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/ https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-li...
  - kelnos 9mo ago
    Heh, funny how personal preference differs. I find 3000K to be just slightly too harsh on my eyes, and prefer 2700K for everywhere except perhaps the bathroom mirror lights.
    - Rebelgecko 9mo ago

fyrn_ 9mo ago

Wouldn't the supply usually be either 50hz or 60hz depending in the country?

stubish 9mo ago
Yes, OP incorrectly quoted voltage rather than frequency.