8 ms·
I live near Paris, and it's a shame to see this sort of thing on every surface here. It's so easy and effortless to trash the look of a place, and so much effo
by jasonkester 9mo ago
I live near Paris, and it's a shame to see this sort of thing on every surface here. It's so easy and effortless to trash the look of a place, and so much effort and pain to get it back to a presentable state. It just seems hopeless trying to stop it.
Sure, you can point to examples of graffiti that don't look all that bad, and I imagine some examples can even be considered to improve the look of a space. But taking this site as a random sample, the "good" ones are a vanishing minority. For every subtle Invader mosaic high on a building, you get dozens of effortless name tags that just wreck the look of a place.
Adding frustration is the fact that there's no way to effectively dissuade people from doing this. You don't want to fine, jail or otherwise ruin the lives of thousands of kids to get them to stop. You just want them to stop spraypainting shit. It's really the only example I can think of where I'd support some form of corporal punishment. Catch kids in the act, 20 lashes in the town square to convince them not to do it again, then set them to work with a wire brush until they can demonstrate that it's back to the state they found it. Even still, I can't imagine it would really do much to dissuade.
It's a shame.
- rimbo789 9mo agoI like graffiti - even random tags over blank walls because it’s a sign people are truly living and breathing in a space. As long as there have been walls there has been graffiti. Spaces without graffiti are artificial and antiseptic.
- bigDinosaur 9mo agoGraffiti on things like trees (e.g. in urban parks) is awful and trees are the opposite of artificial and antiseptic. The main problem with graffiti is that most of it is made without thought or consideration, and that never ends well.
- direwolf20 9mo agoYes, I think they should avoid covering other works of art, nature, information signs, and windows. But blank space should be fair game.
- nmeofthestate 9mo agoMost graffiti is an ugly demoralising reminder of the existence of thoughtless people who have no consideration for others and are happy to degrade the shared public space for a few seconds of selfish enjoyment. For some reason it's got noticeably worse where I live, feels like over the last couple of years.
- GuinansEyebrows 9mo agomost modern buildings are an ugly demoralising reminder of the existence of thoughtless people who have no consideration for others and are happy to degrade the shared public space for a few seconds of selfish enjoyment (or in this case, millions of dollars at the public's expense).
- chickensong 9mo agoI wish you'd stop being coy and just tell us how you really feel.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- InMice 9mo agoI like that part of it too - but feel that if I owned a building and had people spraying paint all over its exterior whenever they felt like it...maybe not so much.
- socalgal2 9mo agoTell me your address so I can come tag your car or your windows or your laptop Graffiti is property destruction, pure and simple. I'm happy to come destroy your property. Complain and you're a hypocrite
- nemomarx 9mo agoWhy windows and not their homes walls? People rarely tag windows in my experience, or cars.
- socalgal2 9mo agoYou don't get to choose what others value. I value my walls being clean. You value your windows and car. If it's not ok for your car and windows to be tagged then it's not okay for others to tag my walls.
- rimbo789 9mo agoThere are tags all over my building, it’s lovely. Please come add more
- s_dev 9mo agoI think there is a lot of nuance here. Just as councils and developers can construct ugly buildings artists can also add ugly work to walls. I agree there is a spectrum. On one hand you've Banksy or Basquiat adding to a flat grey wall and creating art that has a political voice or some artistic merit and the other you've some twat scribbling hate symbols on a historic monument. I don't have on ideas on how we can ensure one and not the other though.
- dkarl 9mo agoIt sounds like you're saying the only thing ugly about tagging is when it contains objectionable political content. That's not really responding to the complaint here, which is that the vast majority of it is low effort, low quality tagging that makes things aesthetically uglier. It's easy to go out with a collector's eye, cherry-pick the good stuff, and put together a slideshow that makes it look like a public amenity, but that ignores the overall effect of wall after building after block of proof of Sturgeon's Law. Is it ignorable? Does all the terrible stuff just disappear into the background, or should we care about how it affects the experiences of people who have to live with it and walk past it every day? I think that's the question people are arguing.
- komali2 9mo agoNo accounting for taste, but, graffiti is important whether it's aesthetically pleasing or not. https://ancientgraffiti.org/Graffiti/ https://ancientgraffiti.org/Graffiti/ Graffiti is a population's expression of ownership of their city. It's a very common form of countercultural resistance and therefore an important relief valve. It's a way for anyone to express themselves on their environment. A city only has value because it's occupied by many people, and those people need to express their autonomy and quite literally "leave their mark." Not to mention, it's lovely to be connected to a common thread of humanity over literal millenia. Just as I scrawled onto a bathroom stall in 2005 "Cameron takes it up the bum," so too did Salvius write of his friend on a wall in the House of the Citharist in the year 79, "Amplicatus, I know that Icarus is buggering you. Salvius wrote this."
- akomtu 9mo agoI suspect it's not the population's expression of ownership, but simply gangs marking their territory.
- direwolf20 9mo agoWhy do you suspect that?
- komali2 9mo agoSometimes tagging is that, sure, or just some person indicating that they exist there. For some taggers, it's an addiction. I knew one that would tag at people's houses when invited to parties. I was outside smoking a cigarette with him after the owner had threw him out on his ass, asking why he did shit like that, and he said "I just feel like if I can tag someone's house, it's like I've won." I can kinda empathize since I'll have an addiction to getting the perfect photograph during a protest or whatever and will go to extreme lengths and burn through SD cards to get it. In my experience the majority of graffiti is artists just putting up art. Privileged folk pass down the propaganda that graffiti is dirty and gangster and so any street art is viewed as dirty, but in the end it's just a matter of taste.
- 9mo ago
- mahrain 9mo agoOne of the most startling differences between Chinese and European cities is the lack of grafitti in China. I wonder if it's explained by laws, norms, enforcement?
- brador 9mo agoIt’s explained by punishment.
- direwolf20 9mo agoIf you execute everyone who commits a misdemeanor, crime rates are extremely low.
- idle_zealot 9mo agoYeah, a city with a population of zero has zero crime.
- dragonwriter 9mo agoIf you simply eliminate all criminal laws, the crime rate goes down as much as is possible, immediately.
- jerlam 9mo agoAlso probably a lot of surveillance. Not just cameras, but by people in the community.
- droopyEyelids 9mo agoPeople underestimate the tattle-tale culture in China.
- GrowingSideways 9mo ago[dead]
- threethirtytwo 9mo ago
- GrowingSideways 9mo ago[dead]
- socalgal2 9mo agoTons of people unfortunately see this as ok. My response to them is always "let me tag your car, your house, your laptop" and if you complain you're a hypocrite I like "Street Art" where permission has been given. I don't like tagging and property destruction. Maybe when I get a little older I'll find some graffiti exhibit at a museum and go tag it.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- mmooss 9mo agoTo include the obvious in this discussion, it's your opinion that street art / graffiti makes things ugly; others feel differently. I think it brings places alive, brings human expression into the otherwise highly controlled environment. There's a spirit to it, and I love to see kids who have no voice take the step of speaking up. I love to see it, generally. To me it's a sign of freedom and very democratic. As for it's quality as art, I don't buy that's a purely subjective, arbitrary opinion (meaning, I think it's reasonable to use some judgment). But people still differ greatly: look at their responses to abstract expressionism, for example; some people think it's trash, others pay tens of millions. There is plenty of ugly in cities: There is a lot of ugly architecture; buildings are much more visually prominent and for aesthetics I would remove the ugly ones much sooner than removing the street art. There is ugly advertising and marketing; there are ugly industrial sites on beautiful waterfronts and in neighborhoods. Should those be subject to the same judgement as some kids expressing themselves? The people who make the buildings, ads, sites have far more power and resources, including enough to make those beautiful. They seem much more responsible for the results than the kids, who may have nothing else.
- lostdog 9mo agoPlease post your address. I'd like to help make your home "feel alive."
- dcposch 9mo ago> You don't want to fine, jail or otherwise ruin the lives of thousands of kids to get them to stop. > You just want them to stop spraypainting shit. https://i.imgur.com/qaFgSm7.png https://i.imgur.com/qaFgSm7.png You have it backwards. It's the act of NOT fining them, NOT calling their parents, of ignoring small destructive acts that ruins lives. Almost everyone doing a 10 year sentence for a serious crime started out by getting away with a lot of small ones.
- guywithahat 9mo agoI agree with everything you said but I don't understand the imgur reference
- lelandfe 9mo agoThat you "want to have your cake and eat it too," is what they're saying. Yon dog does too.
- zahlman 9mo agoI consider corporal punishment inherently barbaric. An appropriate fine or short stay in jail ought not be life-ruining. Also, I think there are other effective approaches in some circumstances. People (including "the kids"), locally (Toronto) and other places I've heard of, have been paid (not a super common thing, but it happens) to do actual artwork. There's a mural I consider quite well done, not too far from my place, that isn't getting defaced even though it's in a place where I would otherwise ordinarily expect strong temptation to "tagging" and other graffiti.
- jjmarr 9mo agoI've heard real estate people call this legalized extortion, since you have to select a graffiti artist with enough reputation that others don't mess with the piece.
- alwa 9mo agoI’ve heard such reputations involve not only the caliber of the art, but also the retributive consequences the artist and friends are thought to impose on people who deface their work…
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- snypher 9mo ago>real estate people call this legalized extortion I hope they know what some say of the real estate agent.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- tristor 9mo agoI really enjoy graffiti murals, and I go out of my way to photograph them in my own city and when I travel. I will see them when I driving or walking around and stop to look for a moment and try to understand the perspective and message of the artist and take a picture if I can. That said, I don't much like tagging, tagging is generally not art in my opinion even if you can say artist styles are used within it. Tagging is all about ego and selfishness, it's there purely for the sake of saying "I was here", as if you are the most important person in the city that you should claim to put your name on that wall. I've met quite a few graffiti artists all over the world in my travels, and the people who tag and the people who paint murals are by and large /not/ the same people. The folks who paint murals are trying to say something, the folks who tag have nothing more to say than to try to create a monument of some kind to themselves. I don't respect taggers, I do respect muralists.
- AngryData 9mo agoAre there places people can legally grafitti there? In a number of small towns there are unofficial grafitti rocks or walls in public view that redirects a lot of peoples mischief and desire to display public art. Nobody is in any actual trouble if they are caught painting it although you will lose your paint. It might not be a total solution, but it could have a significant impact on grafitti other places.
- jorts 9mo agoThere's Clarion Alley in the heart of the Mission, which I think is open to graffiti, as everything is plastered with it, most of it looking really nice. You can see it on Street View.
- secretsatan 9mo agoI think mostly here in switzerland, it’s tolerated in certain areas, and even directly sponsored, in Lausanne, nearly every pedestrian underpass is completely covered in pretty good work, every bit of street furniture has unique designs that seem to be left alone by taggers, areas that might otherwise be run down are covered in colourful murals that are regularly refreshed, i think this is the right approach.
- secretsatan 9mo agoOh, i just saw the 20 lashes thing, rather have graffiti than fascists
- gtowey 9mo agoMy theory is that graffiti is tied to the feeling of lack of agency in one's life. Everyone wants to "make their mark on the world". Some of us get to do that with an interesting career, building a family, getting involved in the community. If you feel excluded from all that, like those things are beyond your reach, you might resort to things like graffiti. IMO it's something that says "I exist, and I can change things around me" for those who don't have a better way to do that. Based on that we "fix" the problem by making sure that everyone has a chance to make a fulfilling life for themselves. Better & freer education; Healthcare; cost of living & wage support. Etc.
- woodpanel 9mo ago> You don't want to fine, jail or otherwise ruin the lives of thousands of kids to get them to stop. Oh yes, you want to (with an asterisk). As a former Graffiti writer myself I can speak from experience that the judge will be the first person in those kids life taking their actions seriously, giving them any sort of guidance. Better spend a couple of hours per month doing social work than letting them slip further away until no softer juvenile criminal code is there to protect them.
- dfxm12 9mo agoIf you want to dissuade illegal graffiti, give people legal walls.
- thegrim000 9mo agoAs if there's no creative avenues available for people to express themselves other than spray painting people's property ..
- squokko 9mo agoYou jail 100 and the thousands stop doing it.
- moron4hire 9mo agoI understand what you're saying but harsh punishment doesn't really work, they just increase the stakes of the crime and lead to more desperate behavior to avoid getting caught rather than less occurrence of the crime itself. Pretty much the only effective form of crime deterrent is economic development, i.e. give people something else to do.
- cypherg 9mo agoan invader mosiac is not graffiti, it's street art, which is more or less the mortal enemy of graff. I'm not even trolling when I say people with attitudes like yours are what legit motivate so many graff writers out there.