3 ms·

If it misfired it likely misfired as it was being taken, not while in his holster. If you’re detaining someone who has a gun and a gun goes off it’s incompeten

by rlt 9mo ago

If it misfired it likely misfired as it was being taken, not while in his holster. If you’re detaining someone who has a gun and a gun goes off it’s incompetent, maybe negligent, but not murder to react by shooting the guy who had the gun. I don’t think anyone can draw definitive conclusions from the videos.

andygeorge 9mo ago
> it’s incompetent but not murder That is a conclusion
- rlt 9mo ago
  Hanlon’s Razor
cthalupa 9mo ago
The person who starts shooting him has full visibility of the gun the entire time. Even if he doesn't realize it is a misfire, why would he believe that it was Pretti who shot? How can you reasonably believe a dude that is dogpiled with a gun not in his control is the shooter?
- nailer 9mo ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46770328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46770328
  - cthalupa 8mo ago
    None of this combats anything in my statement. Again, the officer that begins the shooting can literally see Pretti is disarmed. He has no gun. He watches the other agent take his gun off of him. A more reasonable take in that situation would be thinking that some other protestor has decided to start shooting at them, not that the guy dogpiled by a half dozen agents and visibly fuckin' disarmed is the one doing it. I am not a gun control person. I think we'll never realistically get guns away from criminals, and as long as that's the case, law-abiding citizens should be allowed to have firearms to be on even footing. Full stop. But if we can't hold out law enforcement agencies, however nominal in nature they are, to high enough standards that they don't create the entire situation that causes them to kill someone who was never a threat to them, then they shouldn't be armed. Because we can't trust them not to slaughter US citizens.
    - nailer 8mo ago
      > Again, the officer that begins the shooting can literally see Pretti is disarmed. He has no gun. He watches the other agent take his gun off of him. How do you know what the officer saw? They’re tackling an armed man who attacked them. It’s very possible they might not be noticing every detail of what their colleagues are doing.
      - cthalupa 8mo ago
        > They’re tackling an armed man who attacked them. The most aggressive thing Pretti does in this encounter is step in between the CBP agent and the fallen woman. Not once does he attack them. > It’s very possible they might not be noticing every detail of what their colleagues are doing. I'm not saying every officer that is dogpiling on him can see. I am saying the officer that is standing directly beside the one that disarms him, that is looking directly at the gun as it is removed from his possession saw it. He is looking right at it. He watches it happen. And then he begins shooting.
AngryData 9mo ago
How is that not murder? In your scenario the guy is still innocent and he was shot to death because of ICE being scared by their own incompetence. If someone claps their hands and I reflexively mag dump you on the street, am I not guilty of murder?
- nailer 9mo ago
  > If someone claps their hands and I reflexively mag dump you on the street, am I not guilty of murder? Comparing hearing a clap to a GUNSHOT is wild. Ninety nine percent of people including you and everyone on HN would, if involved in a scuffle with an aggressive armed man would respond to a sudden gun shot by shooting the armed guy.
  - computerthings 9mo ago
    [dead]
  - stephen_g 9mo ago
    We’re talking about the restrained guy who had been trying to help a woman and not once during the whole encounter had a gun in or near his hands? No, I would not murder that man, and I hope others wouldn’t either.
    - nailer 9mo ago
      The guy that was trying to physically interfere with an arrest, and that was now resisting arrest, that you were fighting with, and had a gun near his left/our right hand? Yes you would respond to sudden gunshots with gunfire.
      - AngryData 9mo ago
        You are surrounded by people with guns, it could be any one of them that took a shot at anything else. It is a pretty massive leap to assume the guy being manhandled on the ground is the one shooting. That close to a gunshot you would have no idea where it came from sound unless you directly saw the gun firing, and if they did they would know it wasn't the guy without a gun in his hand.

by rlt 9mo ago

andygeorge 9mo ago

> it’s incompetent but not murder That is a conclusion

rlt 9mo ago
Hanlon’s Razor

cthalupa 9mo ago

The person who starts shooting him has full visibility of the gun the entire time. Even if he doesn't realize it is a misfire, why would he believe that it was Pretti who shot? How can you reasonably believe a dude that is dogpiled with a gun not in his control is the shooter?

nailer 9mo ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46770328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46770328
- cthalupa 8mo ago
  None of this combats anything in my statement. Again, the officer that begins the shooting can literally see Pretti is disarmed. He has no gun. He watches the other agent take his gun off of him. A more reasonable take in that situation would be thinking that some other protestor has decided to start shooting at them, not that the guy dogpiled by a half dozen agents and visibly fuckin' disarmed is the one doing it. I am not a gun control person. I think we'll never realistically get guns away from criminals, and as long as that's the case, law-abiding citizens should be allowed to have firearms to be on even footing. Full stop. But if we can't hold out law enforcement agencies, however nominal in nature they are, to high enough standards that they don't create the entire situation that causes them to kill someone who was never a threat to them, then they shouldn't be armed. Because we can't trust them not to slaughter US citizens.
  - nailer 8mo ago
    > Again, the officer that begins the shooting can literally see Pretti is disarmed. He has no gun. He watches the other agent take his gun off of him. How do you know what the officer saw? They’re tackling an armed man who attacked them. It’s very possible they might not be noticing every detail of what their colleagues are doing.
    - cthalupa 8mo ago
      > They’re tackling an armed man who attacked them. The most aggressive thing Pretti does in this encounter is step in between the CBP agent and the fallen woman. Not once does he attack them. > It’s very possible they might not be noticing every detail of what their colleagues are doing. I'm not saying every officer that is dogpiling on him can see. I am saying the officer that is standing directly beside the one that disarms him, that is looking directly at the gun as it is removed from his possession saw it. He is looking right at it. He watches it happen. And then he begins shooting.

AngryData 9mo ago

How is that not murder? In your scenario the guy is still innocent and he was shot to death because of ICE being scared by their own incompetence. If someone claps their hands and I reflexively mag dump you on the street, am I not guilty of murder?

nailer 9mo ago
> If someone claps their hands and I reflexively mag dump you on the street, am I not guilty of murder? Comparing hearing a clap to a GUNSHOT is wild. Ninety nine percent of people including you and everyone on HN would, if involved in a scuffle with an aggressive armed man would respond to a sudden gun shot by shooting the armed guy.
- computerthings 9mo ago
  [dead]
- stephen_g 9mo ago
  We’re talking about the restrained guy who had been trying to help a woman and not once during the whole encounter had a gun in or near his hands? No, I would not murder that man, and I hope others wouldn’t either.
  - nailer 9mo ago
    The guy that was trying to physically interfere with an arrest, and that was now resisting arrest, that you were fighting with, and had a gun near his left/our right hand? Yes you would respond to sudden gunshots with gunfire.
    - AngryData 9mo ago
      You are surrounded by people with guns, it could be any one of them that took a shot at anything else. It is a pretty massive leap to assume the guy being manhandled on the ground is the one shooting. That close to a gunshot you would have no idea where it came from sound unless you directly saw the gun firing, and if they did they would know it wasn't the guy without a gun in his hand.