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“Obviously, our office encourages lifelong learning and wants Minnesotans to take advantage of educational materials available on the Internet, particularly if

“Obviously, our office encourages lifelong learning and wants Minnesotans to take advantage of educational materials available on the Internet, particularly if they’re free,” said Larry Pogemiller, director of the office. “No Minnesotan should hesitate to take advantage of free, online offerings from Coursera.” Larry Pogemiller needs to go. Earlier today, he said Coursera-affiliated universities needed to register (and, pay up) "to prevent people from wasting their time." Riiiight. /s Pogemiller only backed down from being a Government-sponsored bully when the press picked it up, and when asked, was surprised that Coursera didn't just roll over and pay up. Words fail me for how out-of-touch this guy is. He should be nowhere near the wheels of government. Minnesota, do the right thing and reprimand Larry Pogemiller. A very public firing would not be a step too far. UPDATE: Downvoted? Larry, is that you? UPDATE 2: Wow, I've never had a post that goes up and down in votes like this one. This wasn't an innocent mistake, a clerical error, a misunderstanding of the law, etc. He literally saw nothing wrong with his office's actions until confronted by the press. How many other times has he misused the long arm of the law that didn't get picked up by the press? People in positions of power like Larry Pogemiller must be reprimanded when they abuse their position. Every. Time. The public vests power in these people, and they must, MUST be publicly held accountable when they abuse that trust. If someone doesn't want the responsibility of maintaining the public's trust, they need to find work in the private sector.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
ihsw 14y ago
This is how government works everywhere in the United States -- ram as much greedy crap through legislation hoping nobody would notice. Why innovate when you can legislate? It's not the status quo but it happens far too often, and without repercussions. I am not anti-government or anti-American but it's hard not to have a very sour taste in your mouth when you hear it happening every day.
epistasis 14y ago
Your comment is angry, lashes out with extreme responses, and is generally not helpful for discussion or for governance. I have not seen the "wasting their time" quote anywhere, where did that come from? What, precisely, were his actions before this blew up in the press? You seem to be placing a lot of faith in your reading of Pogemiller's state of mind. How did you come to your conclusions? The internet does outrage really well, but outrage is not conducive to accuracy.
tzs 14y ago
> UPDATE: Downvoted? Larry, is that you? You are being down voted (rightly so) because it was George Roedler who said the things you are complaining about. Larry Pogemiller is the guy higher up who stepped in to correct that.
- erichocean 14y ago
  Here's the paragraph immediately following the part I quoted above[1]: But [Larry Pogemiller's] office was talking tough earlier on Friday, saying it would tell Coursera-affiliated schools that they were out of compliance with state law -- and possibly even take up the matter with the schools' accreditation bodies and the federal government. Are you suggesting his office is out of control, that it's "gone rogue", and thus Larry Pogemiller is (somehow) not responsible? Who do you think is responsible? [1] http://www.twincities.com/technology/ci_21813203/minnesota-eases-restrictions-online-education-following-internet-dust http://www.twincities.com/technology/ci_21813203/minnesota-e...
  - pgeorgi 14y ago
    Roedler is responsible for his talk (and following the law just a tad too closely for this crowd's taste). Pogemiller is responsible for setting things straight (and risks taking the heat by Coursera's for-pay competitors). The situation right now is that they interpret law in a way that isn't exactly typical to the US legal system, with the intent to fix up any shortcomings of the law in 3 months (+ whatever the lawmakers need to get to a conclusion). I wouldn't expect some subordinate in any office to take such a (rather bold) step on their own. As long as they revise their internal policies, so matters relating to new developments are escalated to Pogemiller earlier, the handling seems fine to me. It's not like they sent people to the death row, the worst that happened is two days of media drama.
  - tzs 14y ago
    It's very simple. Coursera appears to be required to register, according to the law as written. The department within the Minnesota Office of Higher Education that handles registration and licensing informed them of this. When people inquired, the manager of that department, George Roedler, responded, restating what the law says and the rationale behind the law. Later, the person at the top of the Minnesota Office of Higher Education, Larry Pogemiller, decided that this was a case where the law should not be applied as written, due to changing circumstances, and so stopped enforcement and said he would work to get the law modified. No one has "gone rogue" or is out of control. They all appear to have done their jobs correctly. Roedler applied the law, as written and as interpreted by the OHE, as is his job. Pogemiller changed OHE policy, as is his job.
graue 14y ago
> Larry Pogemiller needs to go. Earlier today, he said Coursera-affiliated universities needed to register (and, pay up) "to prevent people from wasting their time." I can find no such quote attributed to Pogemiller. The closest I see is in the Slate article (http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/10/18/minnesota_bans_coursera_state_takes_bold_stand_against_free_education.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/10/18/minnesota...) where the reporter writes, > The law's intent is to protect Minnesota students from wasting their money on degrees from substandard institutions, Roedler [George, a manager at the Minnesota Office of Higher Education] says. [...] > The thing is, no one is wasting their money on Coursera courses, because they're free. (Yes, says Roedler, but they could still be wasting their time.) Not by Larry Pogemiller. Not in quotes (reporter's paraphrase). Defending the law in general, not this specific application of it. > Pogemiller only backed down from being a Government-sponsored bully when the press picked it up, and when asked, was surprised that Coursera didn't just roll over and pay up. No evidence of any of this. There are plenty of abuses of power in government, but your outrage here seems misplaced at best.
redthrowaway 14y ago
>UPDATE: Downvoted? Larry, is that you? >UPDATE 2: Wow, I've never had a post that goes up and down in votes like this one. Please don't do this. A good rule of thumb is that, if it will annoy people on reddit, it's probably not appropriate for HN.
- fusiongyro 14y ago
  This kind of thing annoys me too but when I have a post that gets downvoted without being responded to it can help spur a response. Maybe there ought to be a better mechanism to solicit a response from your downvoters.
  - clockstrikesten 14y ago
    You should be able to see who downvotes you and have the option to individually block them from seeing any of your comments in the future.
    - omaranto 14y ago
      I fail to see how that would get your down voters to respond to you.
      - Karunamon 14y ago
        Require a reply for downvotes. Done.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
sown 14y ago
> He should be nowhere near the wheels of government. Old lawyer joke. Q: What do you call a lawyer who can't make it in private practice? A: Your honour. Granted he's not a judge but the spirit of the law applies.
ramanujan 14y ago
This is exactly right. Bureaucrats in general have lifetime employment, so the only check on their power is the press. In this case, they made the colossal mistake of attacking Coursera without thinking through the optics. Most of the people the Minnesota Office of Higher Ed intimidates are not Stanford professors who run internet businesses with millions of visitors and have friends at the New York Times. Usually even a state government has a bigger megaphone than their target; this time they didn't. It's going to be more interesting when the federal Department of Education gets involved. Federal bureaucrats aren't super smart, but they do have smarter people than state government; when DoE attacks, maybe a few quarters down the road, it will probably approach via the angle of "widespread plagiarism" or "unaccredited institution" or something that would at least win some supporters in a comment thread. Humanities professors are the big losers in a Coursera world, as they teach classes that are less practically useful and therefore less likely to attract visitors/monetization. They are also more politically connected than their science/engineering peers, and more likely to resort to government when they realize the extent of the threat that online ed poses to their sinecures. I give 50/50 odds of some kind of federal showdown of this nature between Coursera and DoE as the tuition bubble pops and universities start to go bust over the next 5-10 year time frame. The government has a great deal invested in the higher ed system (and vice versa) via Sallie Mae, NIH, and dozens of other vehicles and will strenuously resist disruption.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

ihsw 14y ago

This is how government works everywhere in the United States -- ram as much greedy crap through legislation hoping nobody would notice. Why innovate when you can legislate? It's not the status quo but it happens far too often, and without repercussions. I am not anti-government or anti-American but it's hard not to have a very sour taste in your mouth when you hear it happening every day.

epistasis 14y ago

Your comment is angry, lashes out with extreme responses, and is generally not helpful for discussion or for governance. I have not seen the "wasting their time" quote anywhere, where did that come from? What, precisely, were his actions before this blew up in the press? You seem to be placing a lot of faith in your reading of Pogemiller's state of mind. How did you come to your conclusions? The internet does outrage really well, but outrage is not conducive to accuracy.

tzs 14y ago

> UPDATE: Downvoted? Larry, is that you? You are being down voted (rightly so) because it was George Roedler who said the things you are complaining about. Larry Pogemiller is the guy higher up who stepped in to correct that.

erichocean 14y ago
Here's the paragraph immediately following the part I quoted above[1]: But [Larry Pogemiller's] office was talking tough earlier on Friday, saying it would tell Coursera-affiliated schools that they were out of compliance with state law -- and possibly even take up the matter with the schools' accreditation bodies and the federal government. Are you suggesting his office is out of control, that it's "gone rogue", and thus Larry Pogemiller is (somehow) not responsible? Who do you think is responsible? [1] http://www.twincities.com/technology/ci_21813203/minnesota-eases-restrictions-online-education-following-internet-dust http://www.twincities.com/technology/ci_21813203/minnesota-e...
- pgeorgi 14y ago
  Roedler is responsible for his talk (and following the law just a tad too closely for this crowd's taste). Pogemiller is responsible for setting things straight (and risks taking the heat by Coursera's for-pay competitors). The situation right now is that they interpret law in a way that isn't exactly typical to the US legal system, with the intent to fix up any shortcomings of the law in 3 months (+ whatever the lawmakers need to get to a conclusion). I wouldn't expect some subordinate in any office to take such a (rather bold) step on their own. As long as they revise their internal policies, so matters relating to new developments are escalated to Pogemiller earlier, the handling seems fine to me. It's not like they sent people to the death row, the worst that happened is two days of media drama.
- tzs 14y ago
  It's very simple. Coursera appears to be required to register, according to the law as written. The department within the Minnesota Office of Higher Education that handles registration and licensing informed them of this. When people inquired, the manager of that department, George Roedler, responded, restating what the law says and the rationale behind the law. Later, the person at the top of the Minnesota Office of Higher Education, Larry Pogemiller, decided that this was a case where the law should not be applied as written, due to changing circumstances, and so stopped enforcement and said he would work to get the law modified. No one has "gone rogue" or is out of control. They all appear to have done their jobs correctly. Roedler applied the law, as written and as interpreted by the OHE, as is his job. Pogemiller changed OHE policy, as is his job.

graue 14y ago

> Larry Pogemiller needs to go. Earlier today, he said Coursera-affiliated universities needed to register (and, pay up) "to prevent people from wasting their time." I can find no such quote attributed to Pogemiller. The closest I see is in the Slate article (http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/10/18/minnesota_bans_coursera_state_takes_bold_stand_against_free_education.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/10/18/minnesota...) where the reporter writes, > The law's intent is to protect Minnesota students from wasting their money on degrees from substandard institutions, Roedler [George, a manager at the Minnesota Office of Higher Education] says. [...] > The thing is, no one is wasting their money on Coursera courses, because they're free. (Yes, says Roedler, but they could still be wasting their time.) Not by Larry Pogemiller. Not in quotes (reporter's paraphrase). Defending the law in general, not this specific application of it. > Pogemiller only backed down from being a Government-sponsored bully when the press picked it up, and when asked, was surprised that Coursera didn't just roll over and pay up. No evidence of any of this. There are plenty of abuses of power in government, but your outrage here seems misplaced at best.

redthrowaway 14y ago

>UPDATE: Downvoted? Larry, is that you? >UPDATE 2: Wow, I've never had a post that goes up and down in votes like this one. Please don't do this. A good rule of thumb is that, if it will annoy people on reddit, it's probably not appropriate for HN.

fusiongyro 14y ago
This kind of thing annoys me too but when I have a post that gets downvoted without being responded to it can help spur a response. Maybe there ought to be a better mechanism to solicit a response from your downvoters.
- clockstrikesten 14y ago
  You should be able to see who downvotes you and have the option to individually block them from seeing any of your comments in the future.
  - omaranto 14y ago
    I fail to see how that would get your down voters to respond to you.
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      Require a reply for downvotes. Done.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

sown 14y ago

> He should be nowhere near the wheels of government. Old lawyer joke. Q: What do you call a lawyer who can't make it in private practice? A: Your honour. Granted he's not a judge but the spirit of the law applies.

ramanujan 14y ago

This is exactly right. Bureaucrats in general have lifetime employment, so the only check on their power is the press. In this case, they made the colossal mistake of attacking Coursera without thinking through the optics. Most of the people the Minnesota Office of Higher Ed intimidates are not Stanford professors who run internet businesses with millions of visitors and have friends at the New York Times. Usually even a state government has a bigger megaphone than their target; this time they didn't. It's going to be more interesting when the federal Department of Education gets involved. Federal bureaucrats aren't super smart, but they do have smarter people than state government; when DoE attacks, maybe a few quarters down the road, it will probably approach via the angle of "widespread plagiarism" or "unaccredited institution" or something that would at least win some supporters in a comment thread. Humanities professors are the big losers in a Coursera world, as they teach classes that are less practically useful and therefore less likely to attract visitors/monetization. They are also more politically connected than their science/engineering peers, and more likely to resort to government when they realize the extent of the threat that online ed poses to their sinecures. I give 50/50 odds of some kind of federal showdown of this nature between Coursera and DoE as the tuition bubble pops and universities start to go bust over the next 5-10 year time frame. The government has a great deal invested in the higher ed system (and vice versa) via Sallie Mae, NIH, and dozens of other vehicles and will strenuously resist disruption.