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What is preventing Microsoft from pulling an Oracle and suing Valve, CodeWeavers, or individual Wine maintainers for re-implementing Win32? This question has b

by LexiMax 8mo ago

What is preventing Microsoft from pulling an Oracle and suing Valve, CodeWeavers, or individual Wine maintainers for re-implementing Win32? This question has been nagging at me for a while. Regardless of how much validity there is to the lawsuit, I imagine that going to trial would be supremely risky, because if you happen across anybody working on Wine that saw something they weren't supposed to, you could sink the whole project. I cannot imagine Microsoft sitting by and quietly letting their Windows monopoly vanish between their fingers. Selling Windows may not be their primary focus these days, but why give up an advantage like that?

some-guy 8mo ago
If anything Microsoft will give up their advantage by making Windows 11 a UX dumpster fire. If Windows 11 had an official way to turn off all of the garbage and opt out of their monopolistic PM-brained “features” a lot of us who switched to Linux probably wouldn’t have happened.
- dlahoda 8mo ago
  i was using wsl2. and got weird slowness and high cpu. appeared it was their built in antivirus(av). i disabled av, but it autoenabled later and did same. it is possible to secure windows other way without active protection btw. i used git on wsl2. it got weird issues with git connectivity over wifi. github ticket not solved. one of most popular and essential dev tools is not stably working in wsl2. many rust crates supported only mac, bsd and linux. nobody cared windows. so even without ux of recent version, i had to leave. for my wife is still run windows. but. she had fully official surface laptop with official office. not 3rd party or pirated things. and... office became very very slow just typing... it was 3 years ago. i have run script disabling all things. it good for 3rd year now. but how they managed to make their laptop new one, with all their things so bad?
shmerl 8mo ago
It will kill GitHub I suspect. Who will trust them if they can pull the plug on open source projects using the dumb "API is copyrightable" claim? I'd say last time they tried to pull that by backing Oracle in that legal case, they already damaged their reputation enough.
- direwolf20 8mo ago
  There's no way. GitHub is already pretty hostile, but the only people who care — like in most hostile platform cases — are the ones who are directly affected.
  - shmerl 8mo ago
    It's a reputational thing. There is already a trend of exodus from GitHub. This Oracle style garbage will just exacerbate it. Whether they care - who knows, but it can be a reason. But in general - as a developer you surely don't want to host your projects using someone who thinks APIs are copyrightable.
olivierestsage 8mo ago
I think there are two reasons this hasn't happened: (1) Wine might be useful to Microsoft at some point for providing backward compatibility in Windows itself; (2) it would be an extremely bad look/PR disaster to go after this project after spending so much time and money positioning yourself as an open source supporter
- sirjaz 8mo ago
  Also, to add the current CEO doesn't care about the OS. All he cares about is the stock price, and his AI mistake.
999900000999 8mo ago
This stuff will never ever ever work real and reliably enough for Microsoft to care. Normal people don't want to use Linux. Normal people can't even install an OS. None the less fight kernel regressions for days. I can even imagine Microsoft coming out with MS Linux one day and contributing to Wine. That's far more likely at this point.
- snailmailman 8mo ago
  It does work reliably enough though. A huge portion of games on Linux do so via pretending to be windows via wine/proton. It’s what allows the Steam deck to exist as a product at all. And Linux on those handheld devices out-performs windows to such a degree that Microsoft has noticed and is trying to make windows perform better on those devices, basically making a gaming mode / handheld mode for their Xbox Ally.
  - 999900000999 8mo ago
    It's not nearly enough to matter to Microsoft. An absolute tiny percentage of desktop computers/laptops run Linux. This is actually a good thing if you're hoping WINE avoids a legal fight with Microsoft. It doesn't matter who's right, Microsoft has deep enough pockets to drag anyone through expensive litigation. I'm an active Linux user and I play tons of games via Proton. But this isn't something I'd suggest to normal people. I've spent more time than I'd like to admit keeping Linux working. They also served as a foundation for much of my career growth. But I understand it's not for everyone.
    - ezst 8mo ago
      I don't think it matters very much. It's not a matter of "if" but of "when": one is consistently getting worse, and the other is measurably getting better and more compatible with the former. Unless of a drastic paradigm change, Linux will see more and more users. Trump dismantling of the global system of trade might also add another nail to this coffin (the recent talk by Cory Doctorow at CCC gives a good picture of how and why).
tumult 8mo ago
Oracle lost Google v. Oracle.
foresto 8mo ago
The main issues I'm aware of are whether APIs are copyrightable, and if so, whether implementing them qualifies as fair use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_.... (And, of course, Microsoft would also have to consider whether such a lawsuit would have greater benefits than costs. I would like to think that customer goodwill has more than zero value, for example.)
- tadfisher 8mo ago
  Going back a bit further: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment%2C_Inc._v._Connectix_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment%2C... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade This fact pattern (reimplementing API functions for emulation or interoperability) tracks even more closely with the Connectix case than Oracle. Google reimplemented a huge swath of the Java API surface so developers could reuse libraries, but actual applications still needed porting, so there's less protection from a fair use perspective; and even then copying APIs was still ruled to be fair use. I just don't see how Microsoft could contort the facts to achieve a meaningfully different outcome. It doesn't matter if APIs are copyrightable if copying them is fair use for just about any purpose.
hayleox 8mo ago
First, they probably wouldn't win. Oracle lost Google v Oracle. Wine is pretty serious about clean-room principles -- they won't accept a patch from anyone who's ever so much as looked at Microsoft-owned source code.[1] Valve has the means and motive to fight a lawsuit to the bitter end. Second, it would be a PR disaster. "Microsoft sues to kill the Steam Deck" is an awful look for the company. Their strategy in recent years has been to say "actually we like Linux now" and play friendly to try to win developers; this would run completely counter to that. There may not be much of an immediate consequence to this, but in the long run I think we'd see developers try to reduce their reliance on Microsoft/Windows. Third, I don't think it would actually stop the tide. Wine and Proton are a big piece of the movement away from Windows, but they're not the only piece. The legal process would take many years to play out; during that time, we'd likely see tons of movement on making it easier for developers to create native Linux builds, and perhaps even new projects that try to find other ways to do Wine-like things without actually reimplementing Win32. Losing Wine would be a huge blow, but I don't think it'd be the end of the story. [1]: https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/wikis/Submitting-Patches#can-i-submit-patches https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/wikis/Submitting-Patch...
- fragmede 8mo ago
  > Second, it would be a PR disaster. "Microsoft sues to kill the Steam Deck" is an awful look for the company. If the alternative is losing the entire Xbox market? Money makes people and companies do funny things.
  - dark-star 8mo ago
    How is the Xbox market related to SteamDeck? SteamDeck plays PC games (which XBox doesn't), and XBox plays its own console games (which PCs and thus the SteamDeck don't)
    - Telaneo 8mo ago
      The Venn diagram of Xbox games and PC games is very close to the Xbox circle just being completely inside the larger PC circle. The number of Series S/X exclusives is literally zero at this point, at least I'm fairly sure, and if there are any, my bets are on them being shovelware. The Xbox One only has one exclusive game of note, which is Halo 5. I don't think the performance of the Steam Deck is up to play all Xbox games at Series X quality, but that's a nitpick assuming future Steam Decks arrive.

by LexiMax 8mo ago

some-guy 8mo ago

If anything Microsoft will give up their advantage by making Windows 11 a UX dumpster fire. If Windows 11 had an official way to turn off all of the garbage and opt out of their monopolistic PM-brained “features” a lot of us who switched to Linux probably wouldn’t have happened.

dlahoda 8mo ago
i was using wsl2. and got weird slowness and high cpu. appeared it was their built in antivirus(av). i disabled av, but it autoenabled later and did same. it is possible to secure windows other way without active protection btw. i used git on wsl2. it got weird issues with git connectivity over wifi. github ticket not solved. one of most popular and essential dev tools is not stably working in wsl2. many rust crates supported only mac, bsd and linux. nobody cared windows. so even without ux of recent version, i had to leave. for my wife is still run windows. but. she had fully official surface laptop with official office. not 3rd party or pirated things. and... office became very very slow just typing... it was 3 years ago. i have run script disabling all things. it good for 3rd year now. but how they managed to make their laptop new one, with all their things so bad?

shmerl 8mo ago

It will kill GitHub I suspect. Who will trust them if they can pull the plug on open source projects using the dumb "API is copyrightable" claim? I'd say last time they tried to pull that by backing Oracle in that legal case, they already damaged their reputation enough.

direwolf20 8mo ago
There's no way. GitHub is already pretty hostile, but the only people who care — like in most hostile platform cases — are the ones who are directly affected.
- shmerl 8mo ago
  It's a reputational thing. There is already a trend of exodus from GitHub. This Oracle style garbage will just exacerbate it. Whether they care - who knows, but it can be a reason. But in general - as a developer you surely don't want to host your projects using someone who thinks APIs are copyrightable.

olivierestsage 8mo ago

I think there are two reasons this hasn't happened: (1) Wine might be useful to Microsoft at some point for providing backward compatibility in Windows itself; (2) it would be an extremely bad look/PR disaster to go after this project after spending so much time and money positioning yourself as an open source supporter

sirjaz 8mo ago
Also, to add the current CEO doesn't care about the OS. All he cares about is the stock price, and his AI mistake.

999900000999 8mo ago

This stuff will never ever ever work real and reliably enough for Microsoft to care. Normal people don't want to use Linux. Normal people can't even install an OS. None the less fight kernel regressions for days. I can even imagine Microsoft coming out with MS Linux one day and contributing to Wine. That's far more likely at this point.

snailmailman 8mo ago
It does work reliably enough though. A huge portion of games on Linux do so via pretending to be windows via wine/proton. It’s what allows the Steam deck to exist as a product at all. And Linux on those handheld devices out-performs windows to such a degree that Microsoft has noticed and is trying to make windows perform better on those devices, basically making a gaming mode / handheld mode for their Xbox Ally.
- 999900000999 8mo ago
  It's not nearly enough to matter to Microsoft. An absolute tiny percentage of desktop computers/laptops run Linux. This is actually a good thing if you're hoping WINE avoids a legal fight with Microsoft. It doesn't matter who's right, Microsoft has deep enough pockets to drag anyone through expensive litigation. I'm an active Linux user and I play tons of games via Proton. But this isn't something I'd suggest to normal people. I've spent more time than I'd like to admit keeping Linux working. They also served as a foundation for much of my career growth. But I understand it's not for everyone.
  - ezst 8mo ago
    I don't think it matters very much. It's not a matter of "if" but of "when": one is consistently getting worse, and the other is measurably getting better and more compatible with the former. Unless of a drastic paradigm change, Linux will see more and more users. Trump dismantling of the global system of trade might also add another nail to this coffin (the recent talk by Cory Doctorow at CCC gives a good picture of how and why).

tumult 8mo ago

Oracle lost Google v. Oracle.

foresto 8mo ago

The main issues I'm aware of are whether APIs are copyrightable, and if so, whether implementing them qualifies as fair use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_.... (And, of course, Microsoft would also have to consider whether such a lawsuit would have greater benefits than costs. I would like to think that customer goodwill has more than zero value, for example.)

tadfisher 8mo ago
Going back a bit further: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment%2C_Inc._v._Connectix_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment%2C... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade This fact pattern (reimplementing API functions for emulation or interoperability) tracks even more closely with the Connectix case than Oracle. Google reimplemented a huge swath of the Java API surface so developers could reuse libraries, but actual applications still needed porting, so there's less protection from a fair use perspective; and even then copying APIs was still ruled to be fair use. I just don't see how Microsoft could contort the facts to achieve a meaningfully different outcome. It doesn't matter if APIs are copyrightable if copying them is fair use for just about any purpose.

hayleox 8mo ago

First, they probably wouldn't win. Oracle lost Google v Oracle. Wine is pretty serious about clean-room principles -- they won't accept a patch from anyone who's ever so much as looked at Microsoft-owned source code.[1] Valve has the means and motive to fight a lawsuit to the bitter end. Second, it would be a PR disaster. "Microsoft sues to kill the Steam Deck" is an awful look for the company. Their strategy in recent years has been to say "actually we like Linux now" and play friendly to try to win developers; this would run completely counter to that. There may not be much of an immediate consequence to this, but in the long run I think we'd see developers try to reduce their reliance on Microsoft/Windows. Third, I don't think it would actually stop the tide. Wine and Proton are a big piece of the movement away from Windows, but they're not the only piece. The legal process would take many years to play out; during that time, we'd likely see tons of movement on making it easier for developers to create native Linux builds, and perhaps even new projects that try to find other ways to do Wine-like things without actually reimplementing Win32. Losing Wine would be a huge blow, but I don't think it'd be the end of the story. [1]: https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/wikis/Submitting-Patches#can-i-submit-patches https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/wikis/Submitting-Patch...

fragmede 8mo ago
> Second, it would be a PR disaster. "Microsoft sues to kill the Steam Deck" is an awful look for the company. If the alternative is losing the entire Xbox market? Money makes people and companies do funny things.
- dark-star 8mo ago
  How is the Xbox market related to SteamDeck? SteamDeck plays PC games (which XBox doesn't), and XBox plays its own console games (which PCs and thus the SteamDeck don't)
  - Telaneo 8mo ago
    The Venn diagram of Xbox games and PC games is very close to the Xbox circle just being completely inside the larger PC circle. The number of Series S/X exclusives is literally zero at this point, at least I'm fairly sure, and if there are any, my bets are on them being shovelware. The Xbox One only has one exclusive game of note, which is Halo 5. I don't think the performance of the Steam Deck is up to play all Xbox games at Series X quality, but that's a nitpick assuming future Steam Decks arrive.