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I used to work for the Air Resources Board of California, and while there is a warm-up period, modern ice cars are so profoundly cleaner than cars even from the

I used to work for the Air Resources Board of California, and while there is a warm-up period, modern ice cars are so profoundly cleaner than cars even from the early 2000s. It’s pretty stunning. Regardless, there’s nothing cleaner than no combustion, and I can’t wait until EV‘s have replaced them all

trimethylpurine 8mo ago
[flagged]
- decimalenough 8mo ago
  Every single survey that I'm aware has concluded that by any measure EVs are more environmentally friendly than ICEs. The only caveat is that the "startup" footprint of an EV is higher (because batteries), but the ongoing cost is far lower, even with polluting electricity sources like coal, because it's still way more efficient to burn coal in a proper power plant than it is to ship around gasoline and burn it badly in ICEs. The breakeven point (depending on your assumptions and driving habits) is a couple of years in, and after that EVs wipe the floor with ICEs. Here's a bunch of those surveys: https://evcentral.com.au/which-is-best-for-the-environment-ev-or-ice-heres-the-truth-about-co2-emissions-across-the-lifecycle-of-new-cars/#:~:text=In%202018%20the%20EEA%20published,cycle%20GHG%20emissions%20than%20ICEVs. https://evcentral.com.au/which-is-best-for-the-environment-e... Keen to hear your expert opinion on what (eg) the International Energy Agency got wrong.
  - trimethylpurine 8mo ago
    [flagged]
    - rcxdude 8mo ago
      Just say the substantive part. The warmup has already reduced the impact, not helped.
      - trimethylpurine 8mo ago
        No warmup here. I've stated that much of the research favoring "clean" energy makes extremely generous assumptions about the validity of the data and allows for overly confident assertions mainly used for marketing. We know a lot less about the environment than you think, and even with what we do know, we can say for sure that when you include supply, manufacture, transduction, etc. you really can't call any method for power generation "clean" with current tech. It's all empty promises of new potential tech to be seen if we milk the tax payer. Just people with degrees in the field making money on selling pipe dreams to the public, and helping officials pump taxes into their investments. That's "clean" energy in a paragraph. It doesn't exist.
    - mittensc 8mo ago
      I'm an expert in the field and I can say EVs are much less pollutant then ICE cars. Do give your best shot to debunk that.
      - trimethylpurine 8mo ago
        Even where they are charged using coal? Please provide the research on that. Note that I'll be checking who funded and who performed the peer review, so please choose carefully before posting.
        mittensc 8mo ago
        How would you put coal in EV?! They're electric, you plug them in! You provide the research to prove ICE is cleaner. Go in detail, I'll check everything: - cost of extraction - cost of byproducts - cost of refining - waste during refining - cost of transporting oil to the pump (what do oil transport ships burn?) - cost of burning that oil - analysis on car age affecting emissions - analysis of cheating like volkswagen - full analysis of ICE car manufacturing - Cost of wars to give us oil - cost of weaponry needed to make oil producers behave and sell it at a decent price - cost of aircraft carriers positioned around the world to enforce that. - health cost of breathing in fumes. - total cost of lead poisoning done by ICE cars until it was forbidden. - health costs of noxes from diesel cars. - costs of cars with dpf off or cat converter removed or just bad engines. - Environmental impact of shale oil and water aquifers destruction and earthquakes. - (reserve the right to add more after you provide the above)
        trimethylpurine 8mo ago
        "Coal in the EV?" Based on that I no longer believe you are an expert of any chemistry or energy. Or you are really bad at making jokes maybe? Regardless, electricity for your EV comes from somewhere, right? It's powered by a coal power plant in much of the US, with electrical energy transduced (effective loss at every transduction point) through countless parts and miles of electrical equipment before it reaches your charger. Are you about to tell me that coal is cleaner than gasoline? It's not remotely comparable. Coal is insanely dirty. This is common knowledge. Every metric you asked about applies to coal and much worse and therefore to your EV in vast swathes of America. The EV in such places is doubly destructive. You've burned coal AND mined lithium and shipped it, plus you're carrying a heavier load, and your batteries are short lived, and toxic. There's simply no comparison. Be real.

trimethylpurine 8mo ago

[flagged]

decimalenough 8mo ago
Every single survey that I'm aware has concluded that by any measure EVs are more environmentally friendly than ICEs. The only caveat is that the "startup" footprint of an EV is higher (because batteries), but the ongoing cost is far lower, even with polluting electricity sources like coal, because it's still way more efficient to burn coal in a proper power plant than it is to ship around gasoline and burn it badly in ICEs. The breakeven point (depending on your assumptions and driving habits) is a couple of years in, and after that EVs wipe the floor with ICEs. Here's a bunch of those surveys: https://evcentral.com.au/which-is-best-for-the-environment-ev-or-ice-heres-the-truth-about-co2-emissions-across-the-lifecycle-of-new-cars/#:~:text=In%202018%20the%20EEA%20published,cycle%20GHG%20emissions%20than%20ICEVs. https://evcentral.com.au/which-is-best-for-the-environment-e... Keen to hear your expert opinion on what (eg) the International Energy Agency got wrong.
- trimethylpurine 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - rcxdude 8mo ago
    Just say the substantive part. The warmup has already reduced the impact, not helped.
    - trimethylpurine 8mo ago
      No warmup here. I've stated that much of the research favoring "clean" energy makes extremely generous assumptions about the validity of the data and allows for overly confident assertions mainly used for marketing. We know a lot less about the environment than you think, and even with what we do know, we can say for sure that when you include supply, manufacture, transduction, etc. you really can't call any method for power generation "clean" with current tech. It's all empty promises of new potential tech to be seen if we milk the tax payer. Just people with degrees in the field making money on selling pipe dreams to the public, and helping officials pump taxes into their investments. That's "clean" energy in a paragraph. It doesn't exist.
  - mittensc 8mo ago
    I'm an expert in the field and I can say EVs are much less pollutant then ICE cars. Do give your best shot to debunk that.
    - trimethylpurine 8mo ago
      Even where they are charged using coal? Please provide the research on that. Note that I'll be checking who funded and who performed the peer review, so please choose carefully before posting.
      - mittensc 8mo ago
        How would you put coal in EV?! They're electric, you plug them in! You provide the research to prove ICE is cleaner. Go in detail, I'll check everything: - cost of extraction - cost of byproducts - cost of refining - waste during refining - cost of transporting oil to the pump (what do oil transport ships burn?) - cost of burning that oil - analysis on car age affecting emissions - analysis of cheating like volkswagen - full analysis of ICE car manufacturing - Cost of wars to give us oil - cost of weaponry needed to make oil producers behave and sell it at a decent price - cost of aircraft carriers positioned around the world to enforce that. - health cost of breathing in fumes. - total cost of lead poisoning done by ICE cars until it was forbidden. - health costs of noxes from diesel cars. - costs of cars with dpf off or cat converter removed or just bad engines. - Environmental impact of shale oil and water aquifers destruction and earthquakes. - (reserve the right to add more after you provide the above)
        trimethylpurine 8mo ago
        "Coal in the EV?" Based on that I no longer believe you are an expert of any chemistry or energy. Or you are really bad at making jokes maybe? Regardless, electricity for your EV comes from somewhere, right? It's powered by a coal power plant in much of the US, with electrical energy transduced (effective loss at every transduction point) through countless parts and miles of electrical equipment before it reaches your charger. Are you about to tell me that coal is cleaner than gasoline? It's not remotely comparable. Coal is insanely dirty. This is common knowledge. Every metric you asked about applies to coal and much worse and therefore to your EV in vast swathes of America. The EV in such places is doubly destructive. You've burned coal AND mined lithium and shipped it, plus you're carrying a heavier load, and your batteries are short lived, and toxic. There's simply no comparison. Be real.