6 ms·

Everyone who flagged this submission, and now everyone that can’t see it.

by testing22321 9mo ago

ninkendo 9mo ago
[flagged]
- scarecrowbob 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - ninkendo 9mo ago
    > it's easy to see the very real authoritarian bend of comfortable professionals who are smart but also in favor of, say, summary execution of people for protesting There’s that rhetoric I’m talking about! Thanks for giving a perfect example. For topics like these, the expectation is that everyone comes in here and expresses sufficient levels of outrage. After all, if you’re scrolling through all the posts showing these awful things, you should have built up the requisite level of outrage by now, so if you post anything other than “HN is obviously ok with executions”, you must be one of them and therefore further evidence that these comfortable professionals are complacent and pro-murder. The nuanced takes are nowhere to be found, because people who might want to come into these discussions with it, see the rhetoric being tossed around, and think “nope, this is all toxic, no way I’m joining in”, flag it, and move on. But you can look at that exact situation (people flagging the post) and conclude “yup, the person doing the flagging is okay with executions.” It’s wild. The sad thing is that there is a nuanced discussion to be had here. In fact it’s critical to this country’s survival that we are able to navigate our way through this. But this discussion, this navigation, needs to happen in small groups, where we can actually engage face-to-face. When we can see each other’s humanity, and know that the other person isn’t a monster, and doesn’t want to see innocent people die any more than you do. Where we can dissect each other’s viewpoints carefully. None of that is really possible in online forums, because the group think is real, and the rhetoric destroys nuance, destroys compassion, destroys the ability to find common ground. It’s sheer toxicity.
    - Capricorn2481 9mo ago
      [flagged]
      - ninkendo 9mo ago
        I don’t know you but I hope wherever you are you’re safe and have a good idea of what your next steps are going to be. I’m getting increasingly distraught over what’s happening myself. It’s starting to affect my family life and I’m having a lot of trouble coping. Venting on the internet is a way for a lot of people to come to grips with what they’re seeing. I understand. If this is what helps you cope, I won’t stop you. Me, it’s especially difficult to see how this hatred is so self-amplifying. I see a president whose primary method of getting to where he is, is to make people hate each other to a maximum degree. I watch liberals like myself fall for it. I see how he intentionally puts armed agents in locations where he knows people will protest, then I see how those protesters are killed in the most predictable way imaginable, because they’re seen as a threat by the people with guns. Then I see the hatred get worse, the protests get larger, with more innocent people joining in, and meanwhile Trump is shipping more armed agents to the same cities. I wish I had an answer. The answer isn’t “don’t protest”, nor is the answer “let’s all put ourselves in a position to be killed” either. I hope on some level that the images of these people getting executed is seared into enough people’s minds that Trump pays an actual political cost, but then I remember what the BLM protests turned into, and how public support tanked for what should have been an obvious issue. So whatever is going to happen, I’m not sure any of our anger is actually going to help. But I don’t really have an answer. I’m sorry. My reasons for flagging topics like this is it just fits a pattern of “administration does something abhorrent, people get mad, social media amplifies the anger, it turns into real world deaths.” I really don’t like seeing this happen. I don’t like the hatred amplification that the internet is doing to my country. I don’t know what else to say.
        deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]
        Capricorn2481 9mo ago
        I don't hate you. I'm frustrated with your mental gymnastics. Because your entire thread here boils down to this > it just fits a pattern of “administration does something abhorrent, people get mad, social media amplifies the anger, it turns into real world deaths I need you to pay attention to how you're writing. You are laying the deaths of these people squarely on the left for how they react to abhorrence. And if you're going to blame people on the internet for these deaths, you should provide something concrete. Please outline what bait you think the left took that caused the death of Renee Nicole Good. Explain what "Hatred" was leading us to this moment. Because her last words were "That's fine dude, I'm not mad at you." We must have a fundamental difference of opinion on cause and effect. Because what I'm seeing is a bunch of untrained goons getting frustrated with people and shooting them in anger, knowing that nobody can stop them, and most people making excuses for it. The idea that the choice is up to us whether we get brutalized is insulting, and frankly, I've seen it being used to excuse political violence for far too long. The idea that the best thing for us now would be to bury these deaths as 6th page news is frustrating, because as someone actually close to this, I've talked with many victims of ICE, and universally, all of them are more upset with the silence and indifference than they are with ICE themselves.
- testing22321 9mo ago
  So democracy is falling in the most militarily powerful country on earth, citizens are being executed and rights stripped… and you think it’s not OK to be angry? You think we just shouldn’t discuss it at all because people are angry? Putting our heads in the sand will not help.
  - zqna 9mo ago
    Yes, you should discuss only what is allowed. If you use the technology to dissent against your rulers, then it should be switched off (until you come back to your sense and submit yourself to the mercy of mulas).
  - 93po 9mo ago
    there are a lot of places to be angry on the internet. in fact, basically every single website other than HN is a place to be angry. HN is deliberately not that, or at least it aims to not be that.
    - krapp 9mo ago
      But people on HN are angry in non-political threads all the time, to the point that there are several items in the guidelines about it (the latest being "don't be curmudgeonly".) And not everyone in every political thread is simply expressing anger. The majority of comments in this very thread are reasonable. The ones that aren't have been flagged, which is proper. But flagging all political threads for "anger," regardless of the actual anger on display, while being far more lenient towards it elsewhere (no one is flagging every thread where someone expresses rage about javascript or AI or the modern web) seems hypocritical.
      - ninkendo 9mo ago
        If HN were only anger, then HN would suck in general, yes. The quality of discussion on this site generally coincides with how much people are able to separate their emotion from the facts at hand. For threads like these that basically drops to zero. I haven’t really been able to find any comments here that are all that reasonable, other than the meta-discussion we’re having now (and trust me, I hate meta-discussion like this. Honestly I’m regretting even bringing any of this up at this point. I should have just flagged and moved on, and had a discussion with IRL friends or family about it instead. Or talked to a therapist, I dunno.)
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- throwworhtthrow 9mo ago
  > Nuance is completely thrown away. People immediately dial up the rhetoric to infinity. The lack of self-reflection in your post might be the most disturbing thing I've read in this thread.
  - ninkendo 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - Capricorn2481 9mo ago
      [flagged]
93po 9mo ago
there's another submission with nearly 4x the comments that isn't flagged - this one is at least in part flagged bc it's a dupe
on_the_train 9mo ago
[flagged]

Everyone who flagged this submission, and now everyone that can’t see it.

ninkendo 9mo ago

[flagged]

scarecrowbob 9mo ago
[flagged]
- ninkendo 9mo ago
  > it's easy to see the very real authoritarian bend of comfortable professionals who are smart but also in favor of, say, summary execution of people for protesting There’s that rhetoric I’m talking about! Thanks for giving a perfect example. For topics like these, the expectation is that everyone comes in here and expresses sufficient levels of outrage. After all, if you’re scrolling through all the posts showing these awful things, you should have built up the requisite level of outrage by now, so if you post anything other than “HN is obviously ok with executions”, you must be one of them and therefore further evidence that these comfortable professionals are complacent and pro-murder. The nuanced takes are nowhere to be found, because people who might want to come into these discussions with it, see the rhetoric being tossed around, and think “nope, this is all toxic, no way I’m joining in”, flag it, and move on. But you can look at that exact situation (people flagging the post) and conclude “yup, the person doing the flagging is okay with executions.” It’s wild. The sad thing is that there is a nuanced discussion to be had here. In fact it’s critical to this country’s survival that we are able to navigate our way through this. But this discussion, this navigation, needs to happen in small groups, where we can actually engage face-to-face. When we can see each other’s humanity, and know that the other person isn’t a monster, and doesn’t want to see innocent people die any more than you do. Where we can dissect each other’s viewpoints carefully. None of that is really possible in online forums, because the group think is real, and the rhetoric destroys nuance, destroys compassion, destroys the ability to find common ground. It’s sheer toxicity.
  - Capricorn2481 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - ninkendo 9mo ago
      I don’t know you but I hope wherever you are you’re safe and have a good idea of what your next steps are going to be. I’m getting increasingly distraught over what’s happening myself. It’s starting to affect my family life and I’m having a lot of trouble coping. Venting on the internet is a way for a lot of people to come to grips with what they’re seeing. I understand. If this is what helps you cope, I won’t stop you. Me, it’s especially difficult to see how this hatred is so self-amplifying. I see a president whose primary method of getting to where he is, is to make people hate each other to a maximum degree. I watch liberals like myself fall for it. I see how he intentionally puts armed agents in locations where he knows people will protest, then I see how those protesters are killed in the most predictable way imaginable, because they’re seen as a threat by the people with guns. Then I see the hatred get worse, the protests get larger, with more innocent people joining in, and meanwhile Trump is shipping more armed agents to the same cities. I wish I had an answer. The answer isn’t “don’t protest”, nor is the answer “let’s all put ourselves in a position to be killed” either. I hope on some level that the images of these people getting executed is seared into enough people’s minds that Trump pays an actual political cost, but then I remember what the BLM protests turned into, and how public support tanked for what should have been an obvious issue. So whatever is going to happen, I’m not sure any of our anger is actually going to help. But I don’t really have an answer. I’m sorry. My reasons for flagging topics like this is it just fits a pattern of “administration does something abhorrent, people get mad, social media amplifies the anger, it turns into real world deaths.” I really don’t like seeing this happen. I don’t like the hatred amplification that the internet is doing to my country. I don’t know what else to say.
      - deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]
      - Capricorn2481 9mo ago
        I don't hate you. I'm frustrated with your mental gymnastics. Because your entire thread here boils down to this > it just fits a pattern of “administration does something abhorrent, people get mad, social media amplifies the anger, it turns into real world deaths I need you to pay attention to how you're writing. You are laying the deaths of these people squarely on the left for how they react to abhorrence. And if you're going to blame people on the internet for these deaths, you should provide something concrete. Please outline what bait you think the left took that caused the death of Renee Nicole Good. Explain what "Hatred" was leading us to this moment. Because her last words were "That's fine dude, I'm not mad at you." We must have a fundamental difference of opinion on cause and effect. Because what I'm seeing is a bunch of untrained goons getting frustrated with people and shooting them in anger, knowing that nobody can stop them, and most people making excuses for it. The idea that the choice is up to us whether we get brutalized is insulting, and frankly, I've seen it being used to excuse political violence for far too long. The idea that the best thing for us now would be to bury these deaths as 6th page news is frustrating, because as someone actually close to this, I've talked with many victims of ICE, and universally, all of them are more upset with the silence and indifference than they are with ICE themselves.
testing22321 9mo ago
So democracy is falling in the most militarily powerful country on earth, citizens are being executed and rights stripped… and you think it’s not OK to be angry? You think we just shouldn’t discuss it at all because people are angry? Putting our heads in the sand will not help.
- zqna 9mo ago
  Yes, you should discuss only what is allowed. If you use the technology to dissent against your rulers, then it should be switched off (until you come back to your sense and submit yourself to the mercy of mulas).
- 93po 9mo ago
  there are a lot of places to be angry on the internet. in fact, basically every single website other than HN is a place to be angry. HN is deliberately not that, or at least it aims to not be that.
  - krapp 9mo ago
    But people on HN are angry in non-political threads all the time, to the point that there are several items in the guidelines about it (the latest being "don't be curmudgeonly".) And not everyone in every political thread is simply expressing anger. The majority of comments in this very thread are reasonable. The ones that aren't have been flagged, which is proper. But flagging all political threads for "anger," regardless of the actual anger on display, while being far more lenient towards it elsewhere (no one is flagging every thread where someone expresses rage about javascript or AI or the modern web) seems hypocritical.
    - ninkendo 9mo ago
      If HN were only anger, then HN would suck in general, yes. The quality of discussion on this site generally coincides with how much people are able to separate their emotion from the facts at hand. For threads like these that basically drops to zero. I haven’t really been able to find any comments here that are all that reasonable, other than the meta-discussion we’re having now (and trust me, I hate meta-discussion like this. Honestly I’m regretting even bringing any of this up at this point. I should have just flagged and moved on, and had a discussion with IRL friends or family about it instead. Or talked to a therapist, I dunno.)
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
throwworhtthrow 9mo ago
> Nuance is completely thrown away. People immediately dial up the rhetoric to infinity. The lack of self-reflection in your post might be the most disturbing thing I've read in this thread.
- ninkendo 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Capricorn2481 9mo ago
    [flagged]

93po 9mo ago

there's another submission with nearly 4x the comments that isn't flagged - this one is at least in part flagged bc it's a dupe

on_the_train 9mo ago

[flagged]