4 ms·

“to what extent should public and private institutions be expected to accommodate people who, for no other reason than ignorance, choose to opt out of the colle

by giantg2 9mo ago

“to what extent should public and private institutions be expected to accommodate people who, for no other reason than ignorance, choose to opt out of the collective responsibility to public health?” Before we can answer that, we would have to define the risks. For example, the polio vaccine has no logical basis for being mandatory in the US. The requirement of the polio in the US has no basis in science and it goes against the stated purpose of the recommendations as it does not weigh risks and benefits. Instead, it is an ideological stance. Polio has been eradicated from the US (except for cases caused by vaccines themselves) and most of the rest of the world. You could require it for travel to/from risky locations. We know that severe adverse affects vastly out number the cases of Polio in the US.

etchalon 9mo ago
It absolutely weighed risks and benefits.
- giantg2 9mo ago
  Can you elaborate?
homeonthemtn 9mo ago
Not mentioned here is the risk of importing polio from another country. The need for the vaccine can certainly be discussed, but I'm not going to pretend that the country exists in a vacuum
- giantg2 9mo ago
  Just require if for travel, as we do with Yellow Fever and other vaccines.
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
IncreasePosts 9mo ago
If the polio vaccine was banned in the US starting tomorrow, would you expect the next cohort of newborns to experience higher levels of polio, similar levels of polio, or lower levels of polio over the next 10 years?
- giantg2 9mo ago
  With my comment about travel requirements, it would be similar.
  - IncreasePosts 9mo ago
    Do you know that even vaccinated individuals can travel to regions with polio, pick it up asymptomatically, and bring it back and give it to an unvaccinated person who may then show more of the paralytic polio symptoms?
    - giantg2 9mo ago
      Under the current vaccination policy that is possible. However, if travel restrictions were in place they should require recent live immunity, which would be extremely unlikely to result in a transmissible infection.
      - IncreasePosts 9mo ago
        Yes, the live vaccine would prevent people from going abroad and coming home as a silent carrier, but the live vaccine leaves open the possibility of VAPP, meaning of the tens of millions of Americans who would need the live vaccine, some of them would develop VAPP and perhaps spread it to their community, which now generally has no immunity to polio if we aren't getting any polio vaccinations.
        snypher 9mo ago
        >VAPP risk was 4.7 cases per million births (range, 2.4–9.7), leading to a global annual burden estimate of 498 cases Would I be right in saying your 'some of them' ~= 10?
croes 9mo ago
Visitors from other countries could bring polio and US switched to 100% inactivated polio vaccine in 2000 to eliminate the risk of Vaccine-Associated Paralytic Polio.
- giantg2 9mo ago
  That's why my comment says travel to/from risky areas should require it.
thrance 9mo ago
Polio was a deadly disease, paralyzing thousands of children for life, every year. Vaccines were seen as a blessing to the first generation that got them. And now, people who've never opened a history book can confidently claim they are useless, and that polio disappeared on its own so vaccines were never required, and are even harmful! Fuck that particular brand of ignorance.
- giantg2 9mo ago
  This seems off topic. I saw nothing in the article nor my comment that displays that level of ignorance. This seems more like a strawman to start a flame war.
  - thrance 9mo ago
    Huh? You were the one claiming that polio vaccines cause more harm than good, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Polio is so rare in the US, because of the vaccines, obviously.
- indemnity 9mo ago
  My grandfather limped his entire life because he contracted polio as a child. He would be amazed at our current epidemic of anti-science stupidity.
xboxnolifes 9mo ago
> We know that severe adverse affects vastly out number the cases of Polio in the US. This just sounds like "It's working too well" to me. The cases of polio have dropped to near nothing because we have so many people vaccinated. We're left with a couple hundred bad effects over the sample size of the entire country.
- giantg2 9mo ago
  Is it working if it's not actually doing anything? As in, the recipients are not at risk of contracting it, there is no difference in risk between the vaccinated and unvaccinated in an environment that lacks the pathogen. Travel requirements could continue the protection with less risk, just like with Yellow Fever. It's not because we have so many people vaccinated. It's because we had so many people vaccinated when it existed. Polio has been eradicated from all but 2-3 countries due to past vaccination efforts. Just as Yellow Fever has been eradicated in the US and that vaccine is only required for travel to risky places.
  - plqbfbv 9mo ago
    > Is it working if it's not actually doing anything? Yes, because unvaccinated humans lack immunity. A single imported case could spread rapidly through an unvaccinated population. I found this informative ECDC page: https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/poliomyelitis/facts https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/poliomyelitis/facts Quotes: - Poliovirus can survive at room temperature for a few weeks in soil, sewage, and water - It's highly infectious with sero-conversion rates of 90–100% among household contacts - Factors like poor sanitation, high population density, and low vaccine coverage all fuel transmission Yellow fever needs mosquitoes to spread and has animal reservoirs. Once you reduce/eliminate transmission in those reservoirs, the virus basically can't circulate even with low human vaccination coverage. For polio, humans are the only reservoir, and it spreads directly person-to-person. That's why you can't just rely on vaccinating travelers. Plus, vaccine-derived polio (cVDPV) is actively circulating in Nigeria and Chad right now. In 2025 alone Nigeria reported 62 cVDPV2 cases. This happens when vaccination coverage drops low enough for the weakened vaccine virus itself to mutate and spread. So it's not just reintroduction risk, the virus is actively evolving in low-coverage areas. If a huge cluster were to emerge, you'd need rapid mass vaccination campaigns to stop it. That's way riskier than maintaining routine childhood vaccination.
beej71 9mo ago
This just seems like we're asking for it. We have historical examples of polio ripping through the US causing tremendous amounts of damage. We're going to have an unvaccinated populace and someone's going to get exposed.

by giantg2 9mo ago

etchalon 9mo ago

It absolutely weighed risks and benefits.

giantg2 9mo ago
Can you elaborate?

homeonthemtn 9mo ago

Not mentioned here is the risk of importing polio from another country. The need for the vaccine can certainly be discussed, but I'm not going to pretend that the country exists in a vacuum

giantg2 9mo ago
Just require if for travel, as we do with Yellow Fever and other vaccines.

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

IncreasePosts 9mo ago

If the polio vaccine was banned in the US starting tomorrow, would you expect the next cohort of newborns to experience higher levels of polio, similar levels of polio, or lower levels of polio over the next 10 years?

giantg2 9mo ago
With my comment about travel requirements, it would be similar.
- IncreasePosts 9mo ago
  Do you know that even vaccinated individuals can travel to regions with polio, pick it up asymptomatically, and bring it back and give it to an unvaccinated person who may then show more of the paralytic polio symptoms?
  - giantg2 9mo ago
    Under the current vaccination policy that is possible. However, if travel restrictions were in place they should require recent live immunity, which would be extremely unlikely to result in a transmissible infection.
    - IncreasePosts 9mo ago
      Yes, the live vaccine would prevent people from going abroad and coming home as a silent carrier, but the live vaccine leaves open the possibility of VAPP, meaning of the tens of millions of Americans who would need the live vaccine, some of them would develop VAPP and perhaps spread it to their community, which now generally has no immunity to polio if we aren't getting any polio vaccinations.
      - snypher 9mo ago
        >VAPP risk was 4.7 cases per million births (range, 2.4–9.7), leading to a global annual burden estimate of 498 cases Would I be right in saying your 'some of them' ~= 10?

croes 9mo ago

Visitors from other countries could bring polio and US switched to 100% inactivated polio vaccine in 2000 to eliminate the risk of Vaccine-Associated Paralytic Polio.

giantg2 9mo ago
That's why my comment says travel to/from risky areas should require it.

thrance 9mo ago

Polio was a deadly disease, paralyzing thousands of children for life, every year. Vaccines were seen as a blessing to the first generation that got them. And now, people who've never opened a history book can confidently claim they are useless, and that polio disappeared on its own so vaccines were never required, and are even harmful! Fuck that particular brand of ignorance.

giantg2 9mo ago
This seems off topic. I saw nothing in the article nor my comment that displays that level of ignorance. This seems more like a strawman to start a flame war.
- thrance 9mo ago
  Huh? You were the one claiming that polio vaccines cause more harm than good, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Polio is so rare in the US, because of the vaccines, obviously.
indemnity 9mo ago
My grandfather limped his entire life because he contracted polio as a child. He would be amazed at our current epidemic of anti-science stupidity.

xboxnolifes 9mo ago

> We know that severe adverse affects vastly out number the cases of Polio in the US. This just sounds like "It's working too well" to me. The cases of polio have dropped to near nothing because we have so many people vaccinated. We're left with a couple hundred bad effects over the sample size of the entire country.

giantg2 9mo ago
Is it working if it's not actually doing anything? As in, the recipients are not at risk of contracting it, there is no difference in risk between the vaccinated and unvaccinated in an environment that lacks the pathogen. Travel requirements could continue the protection with less risk, just like with Yellow Fever. It's not because we have so many people vaccinated. It's because we had so many people vaccinated when it existed. Polio has been eradicated from all but 2-3 countries due to past vaccination efforts. Just as Yellow Fever has been eradicated in the US and that vaccine is only required for travel to risky places.
- plqbfbv 9mo ago
  > Is it working if it's not actually doing anything? Yes, because unvaccinated humans lack immunity. A single imported case could spread rapidly through an unvaccinated population. I found this informative ECDC page: https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/poliomyelitis/facts https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/poliomyelitis/facts Quotes: - Poliovirus can survive at room temperature for a few weeks in soil, sewage, and water - It's highly infectious with sero-conversion rates of 90–100% among household contacts - Factors like poor sanitation, high population density, and low vaccine coverage all fuel transmission Yellow fever needs mosquitoes to spread and has animal reservoirs. Once you reduce/eliminate transmission in those reservoirs, the virus basically can't circulate even with low human vaccination coverage. For polio, humans are the only reservoir, and it spreads directly person-to-person. That's why you can't just rely on vaccinating travelers. Plus, vaccine-derived polio (cVDPV) is actively circulating in Nigeria and Chad right now. In 2025 alone Nigeria reported 62 cVDPV2 cases. This happens when vaccination coverage drops low enough for the weakened vaccine virus itself to mutate and spread. So it's not just reintroduction risk, the virus is actively evolving in low-coverage areas. If a huge cluster were to emerge, you'd need rapid mass vaccination campaigns to stop it. That's way riskier than maintaining routine childhood vaccination.

beej71 9mo ago

This just seems like we're asking for it. We have historical examples of polio ripping through the US causing tremendous amounts of damage. We're going to have an unvaccinated populace and someone's going to get exposed.