3 ms·

> actively hostile That’s the real problem MS has. It’s becoming a meme how bad the relationship between the user and windows is. It’s going to cause generatio

> actively hostile That’s the real problem MS has. It’s becoming a meme how bad the relationship between the user and windows is. It’s going to cause generational damage to their company just so they can put ads in the start menu.

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
josephg 9mo ago
It’s a pity for Apple that they keep making macOS worse with each major update. Modern Apple hardware running snow leopard would be a thing of beauty. At this rate, my next laptop might end up being a framework running Linux.
- heavyset_go 9mo ago
  Buy a laptop with less problems on Linux if that's your intention.
  - josephg 9mo ago
    What laptops would you recommend? I didn’t realise framework laptops struggled with Linux?
    - IgorPartola 9mo ago
      Lenovo T and X series are excellent and cheap as dirt used. There is also System 76. Or you could get a MacBook and boot Linux on that. Some older ones work well, I hear.
      - nandomrumber 9mo ago
        I’ve been using exclusively HP EliteBook, including x360 models, laptops recently (past 5 years) and they’ve all been 100% on Linux.
      - josephg 9mo ago
        > Or you could get a MacBook and boot Linux on that. Some older ones work well, I hear. Is linux support on the M1/M2 models as good as linux support on x86 laptops? My understanding was that there's still a fair bit of hardware that isn't fully supported. Like, external displays and Bluetooth.
        oarsinsync 9mo ago
        https://asahilinux.org/fedora/#device-support https://asahilinux.org/fedora/#device-support Or more detailed results at: https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/feature-support/overview/ https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/feature-support/overvie...
      - vee-kay 9mo ago
        I use an old Lenovo AIO PC to dual boot Linux Mint and Windows 10. It works well from a hardware and firmware perspective, but I've deliberately avoided Windows 11 as it is crapware. I have done triple booting of MacOS, Linux and Windows on an old Mac Mini, and it was a nightmare to get them working, but worked well once set up. I think well known brands and models of PCs are better for such alternative setups, rather than obscure PCs.
    - backscratches 9mo ago
      Starlabs
    - sandworm101 9mo ago
      Get whatever is most popular on amazon at your price point. All the most popular hardware should work fine with any of the most popular distros.
    - grayhatter 9mo ago
      They don't. I don't know what they're talking about, but I've had fewer problems with linux on my framework than weird stuff on my OSX work machine. And I'm running Alpine on my framework, so if anything should be wonky it's this one.
    - heavyset_go 9mo ago
      I bought and returned an AMD Framework. I knew what I was getting into, but the build quality + firmware quality were lacking, sleep was bad and I'm not new to fixing Linux sleep issues. Take a look at the Linux related support threads on their forum. I've been using AMD EliteBooks, the firmware has Linux happy paths, the hardware is supported by the kernel and Modern Standby actually works well. Getting one with a QHD to UHD screen is mandatory, though, and I wouldn't buy a brand new model without confirming it has working hardware on linux-hardware.org. If you look online, HP has a YouTube channel with instructional videos for replacing and repairing every part of their laptops. They are made to make memory, storage and WiFi/5G card replacements easy, parts are cheap and the after market for them is healthy. I've also had good luck with their support, they literally overnight'd a new laptop with a return box for the broken one in a day.
      - vladvasiliu 9mo ago
        We have Elitebooks at work and can confirm that the 8x0 series, at least until G8, has superb Linux support out of the box (and I run Arch, by the way). IME it's actually better than Windows, since both my AMD and Intel models have had things not working on Windows (the AMD still often hangs during sleep). > Getting one with a QHD to UHD screen is mandatory But I have to ask: are those screens actually any good? Ours have FHD panels, and I have not seen a single one with a decent screen. There are roughly two categories: either the el-cheapo screens, with washed-out colors (6 bpp panels on a 1500 EUR laptop!) and dimmer than the moonlight through closed shades, but they have usable angles; or the "sure view" version with very bright backlight, usable outside (not in direct sunlight, of course) with, on paper, ok colors (specs say 100% sRGB) but laughably bad viewing angles (with the sureview off, of course) and, in practice, questionable color fidelity. These are also fairly expensive, around 1500 EUR, and the components are of questionable quality. The SSDs in particular are dog-slow (but they're very easy to replace). I have two 5-year-old 840 G8s (one Intel, one AMD), and they have both held up fine, but I usually don't abuse my laptops (my 2013 MBP still looks brand new aside from some scratches). However, looking around at my colleagues' laptops, they tend to fall apart, and I can count on one hand the ones still in good shape. The usual suspects seem to be the barrel power connector and the keyboard. Newer models only have USB-C AFAIK (mine have both, but came with a USB-C power adapter in the box). But they tend to look pretty bad in general, with very misaligned panels and fragile USB ports.
    - dotancohen 9mo ago
      I've used Dell Inspiron laptops in the past, never had a problem. WiFi, multimonitor output, bluetooth, etc all work out of the box with Debian or Ubuntu.
    - cess11 9mo ago
      I've had very few issues with Lenovo and Toshiba. They're generally somewhat repairable. EliteBook and Z Book from HP seems fine for Linux too, but I've never had to fiddle with hardware except that I once removed a battery from an EliteBook.
- seemaze 9mo ago
  I switched from Windows to Mac 15 years ago. It was a revelation when the terrible habits of verbally abusing my computer and anxiety saving files every 22 seconds just evaporated. Those old habits have been creeping back lately through all the various *OS 26 updates. I too now have Linux on Framework. Not perfect, but so much better for my wellbeing.
  - eimrine 9mo ago
    The 7 did not behave like that.
- grayhatter 9mo ago
  Mine already is... it's so nice not to be disrespected every time I turn on my laptop. I recommend it.
- GaryBluto 9mo ago
  I still use Snow Leopard on a high-spec 2008 Mac Pro for most of my personal projects. Works a charm and is fast as ever.
b112 9mo ago
Maoboro cigarettes uaed to be for women, including red tipped filters to hide lipstick marks. Sales waned, so they actually rebranded the cigarette for men, and even succeeded in making it a definition of manliness. Advertising stories like that, make sure M$ execs could care less about damage to their image. Especially when profit leers its head. (at least, I presume?!?)
to11mtm 9mo ago
It is sad that we got to here from when the worst problem was a tile start menu (I liked 8.1 and it ran good on fairly trash hardware.)
gorbachev 9mo ago
They don't care. All of their money is on AI.
IgorPartola 9mo ago
It’s funny because I started with Windows 3.1 and it was actively user hostile then. From 3.1 to XP it was awful. Then it got slightly better with 7, and went downhill from there. Realistically, a major Linux distro is the most user-beneficial thing you can do and today it is easier than ever. If my 12 year old can figure out how to use it productively, so can anyone. Switch today and enjoy.
tonyedgecombe 9mo ago
You just have to look at who buys Windows to understand this. It's OEM's and enterprises. Almost nobody buys an individual license. That's why they don't care. As an individual you get what your employer or hardware supplier says, like it or lump it.

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

josephg 9mo ago

It’s a pity for Apple that they keep making macOS worse with each major update. Modern Apple hardware running snow leopard would be a thing of beauty. At this rate, my next laptop might end up being a framework running Linux.

heavyset_go 9mo ago
Buy a laptop with less problems on Linux if that's your intention.
- josephg 9mo ago
  What laptops would you recommend? I didn’t realise framework laptops struggled with Linux?
  - IgorPartola 9mo ago
    Lenovo T and X series are excellent and cheap as dirt used. There is also System 76. Or you could get a MacBook and boot Linux on that. Some older ones work well, I hear.
    - nandomrumber 9mo ago
      I’ve been using exclusively HP EliteBook, including x360 models, laptops recently (past 5 years) and they’ve all been 100% on Linux.
    - josephg 9mo ago
      > Or you could get a MacBook and boot Linux on that. Some older ones work well, I hear. Is linux support on the M1/M2 models as good as linux support on x86 laptops? My understanding was that there's still a fair bit of hardware that isn't fully supported. Like, external displays and Bluetooth.
      - oarsinsync 9mo ago
        https://asahilinux.org/fedora/#device-support https://asahilinux.org/fedora/#device-support Or more detailed results at: https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/feature-support/overview/ https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/feature-support/overvie...
    - vee-kay 9mo ago
      I use an old Lenovo AIO PC to dual boot Linux Mint and Windows 10. It works well from a hardware and firmware perspective, but I've deliberately avoided Windows 11 as it is crapware. I have done triple booting of MacOS, Linux and Windows on an old Mac Mini, and it was a nightmare to get them working, but worked well once set up. I think well known brands and models of PCs are better for such alternative setups, rather than obscure PCs.
  - backscratches 9mo ago
    Starlabs
  - sandworm101 9mo ago
    Get whatever is most popular on amazon at your price point. All the most popular hardware should work fine with any of the most popular distros.
  - grayhatter 9mo ago
    They don't. I don't know what they're talking about, but I've had fewer problems with linux on my framework than weird stuff on my OSX work machine. And I'm running Alpine on my framework, so if anything should be wonky it's this one.
  - heavyset_go 9mo ago
    I bought and returned an AMD Framework. I knew what I was getting into, but the build quality + firmware quality were lacking, sleep was bad and I'm not new to fixing Linux sleep issues. Take a look at the Linux related support threads on their forum. I've been using AMD EliteBooks, the firmware has Linux happy paths, the hardware is supported by the kernel and Modern Standby actually works well. Getting one with a QHD to UHD screen is mandatory, though, and I wouldn't buy a brand new model without confirming it has working hardware on linux-hardware.org. If you look online, HP has a YouTube channel with instructional videos for replacing and repairing every part of their laptops. They are made to make memory, storage and WiFi/5G card replacements easy, parts are cheap and the after market for them is healthy. I've also had good luck with their support, they literally overnight'd a new laptop with a return box for the broken one in a day.
    - vladvasiliu 9mo ago
      We have Elitebooks at work and can confirm that the 8x0 series, at least until G8, has superb Linux support out of the box (and I run Arch, by the way). IME it's actually better than Windows, since both my AMD and Intel models have had things not working on Windows (the AMD still often hangs during sleep). > Getting one with a QHD to UHD screen is mandatory But I have to ask: are those screens actually any good? Ours have FHD panels, and I have not seen a single one with a decent screen. There are roughly two categories: either the el-cheapo screens, with washed-out colors (6 bpp panels on a 1500 EUR laptop!) and dimmer than the moonlight through closed shades, but they have usable angles; or the "sure view" version with very bright backlight, usable outside (not in direct sunlight, of course) with, on paper, ok colors (specs say 100% sRGB) but laughably bad viewing angles (with the sureview off, of course) and, in practice, questionable color fidelity. These are also fairly expensive, around 1500 EUR, and the components are of questionable quality. The SSDs in particular are dog-slow (but they're very easy to replace). I have two 5-year-old 840 G8s (one Intel, one AMD), and they have both held up fine, but I usually don't abuse my laptops (my 2013 MBP still looks brand new aside from some scratches). However, looking around at my colleagues' laptops, they tend to fall apart, and I can count on one hand the ones still in good shape. The usual suspects seem to be the barrel power connector and the keyboard. Newer models only have USB-C AFAIK (mine have both, but came with a USB-C power adapter in the box). But they tend to look pretty bad in general, with very misaligned panels and fragile USB ports.
  - dotancohen 9mo ago
    I've used Dell Inspiron laptops in the past, never had a problem. WiFi, multimonitor output, bluetooth, etc all work out of the box with Debian or Ubuntu.
  - cess11 9mo ago
    I've had very few issues with Lenovo and Toshiba. They're generally somewhat repairable. EliteBook and Z Book from HP seems fine for Linux too, but I've never had to fiddle with hardware except that I once removed a battery from an EliteBook.
seemaze 9mo ago
I switched from Windows to Mac 15 years ago. It was a revelation when the terrible habits of verbally abusing my computer and anxiety saving files every 22 seconds just evaporated. Those old habits have been creeping back lately through all the various *OS 26 updates. I too now have Linux on Framework. Not perfect, but so much better for my wellbeing.
- eimrine 9mo ago
  The 7 did not behave like that.
grayhatter 9mo ago
Mine already is... it's so nice not to be disrespected every time I turn on my laptop. I recommend it.
GaryBluto 9mo ago
I still use Snow Leopard on a high-spec 2008 Mac Pro for most of my personal projects. Works a charm and is fast as ever.

b112 9mo ago

Maoboro cigarettes uaed to be for women, including red tipped filters to hide lipstick marks. Sales waned, so they actually rebranded the cigarette for men, and even succeeded in making it a definition of manliness. Advertising stories like that, make sure M$ execs could care less about damage to their image. Especially when profit leers its head. (at least, I presume?!?)

to11mtm 9mo ago

It is sad that we got to here from when the worst problem was a tile start menu (I liked 8.1 and it ran good on fairly trash hardware.)

gorbachev 9mo ago

They don't care. All of their money is on AI.

IgorPartola 9mo ago

It’s funny because I started with Windows 3.1 and it was actively user hostile then. From 3.1 to XP it was awful. Then it got slightly better with 7, and went downhill from there. Realistically, a major Linux distro is the most user-beneficial thing you can do and today it is easier than ever. If my 12 year old can figure out how to use it productively, so can anyone. Switch today and enjoy.

tonyedgecombe 9mo ago

You just have to look at who buys Windows to understand this. It's OEM's and enterprises. Almost nobody buys an individual license. That's why they don't care. As an individual you get what your employer or hardware supplier says, like it or lump it.