3 ms·

But why? What's unsustainable about an email service, for example, run by competent European engineers at European salaries?

by tene80i 9mo ago

gtirloni 9mo ago
The huge influx of competent European engineers to the US is a real thing.
- kaffekaka 9mo ago
  Will this continue?
- celsoazevedo 9mo ago
  That might not be the case any more if things get to the point where someone in Europe must use a European alternative.
- ragall 9mo ago
  That was true a few years ago, but not any more. Covid made a lot of US-based companies sack local developers and actually open offices in Europe. I have friends in Italy who, between 2022 and 2023, moved from local companies to US companies opening offices in Rome and Milano, and got a salary bump from ~30-35k to 80-90k plus bonus and RSUs. Same thing happening all over Europe.
- mrweasel 9mo ago
  I don't think that's motivated by money. The US companies simply solved more interesting problems. Working for a start up in the Bay area trying to invent a new industry, or scale systems to global is generally more interesting than working on a CRM system for mid-size lumberyards in Sweden. The CRM system pays well enough to have a comfortable lifestyle and provide for your family, but it's a little boring if you're 25 with a shiny new CS degree.
- palata 9mo ago
  Because many European engineers move to the US does not mean at all that most European engineers move to the US. There are many engineers in Europe. I hear that argument a lot, and honestly it sounds uninformed and downright disrespectful. Some kind of "I am a US developer, we US developers are the best, and the few good European engineers come here. The remaining ones in Europe are dumb". Not to mention that I have talked to quite a few European engineers who could earn a lot more by moving to the US, but just really don't want to live in the US. Maybe there is a reason for that?
- honzabe 9mo ago
  I think you underestimate how dramatically the perception of the US in Europe changed for the worse. It was already in nose dive during recent months, but the recent days (Greenland crisis) will put a nail in the coffin. I don’t have a crystal ball, but I expect that influx to dry up very soon.
  - fatherwavelet 9mo ago
    What is the European alternative to the US military if Russia attacks Europe? This whole thing just seems like the standard hysterical overreaction of people who spend too much time on social media.
    - honzabe 9mo ago
      > What is the European alternative to the US military if Russia attacks Europe? European military. Why do some people act as if European countries had no armies? And even if we had no armies and Russia attacked and totally destroyed us, how is it related to the topic discussed here, which is whether the influx of European engineers to the US will continue or not? > This whole thing just seems like the standard hysterical overreaction of people who spend too much time on social media. Perhaps. I don't think it is, but let's say you are right. How is that relevant? People do not want to go to a country they perceive negatively. Whether that perception is an objective fact or hysteria is, in this context, immaterial.
      - B1FIDO 9mo ago
        Well there is no "European military" per se and there will be no "Russia invades Europe" scenario, because "Europe" is a continent and not a sovereign nation. What would happen is that Russia invades Poland, or Russia invades Romania or Bulgaria or something. Those are Eastern European countries. (I mean they all used to be Soviet bloc anyway.) Or Russia would invade Germany like the good ol' days. So whatever nation they invaded would sic their own armed forces on them, and their allies' too. NATO could jump into the fray. Americans (and perhaps Russians too) often misunderstand how terribly small European nations are, really. They're mostly smaller than individual United States. So, less population, less time to transport stuff, fewer natural resources available in a sovereign context, etc. But lots of national borders. So Russia won't invade "Europe" but they could go into one or more nations on the list.

But why? What's unsustainable about an email service, for example, run by competent European engineers at European salaries?

by tene80i 9mo ago

But why? What's unsustainable about an email service, for example, run by competent European engineers at European salaries?

gtirloni 9mo ago

The huge influx of competent European engineers to the US is a real thing.

kaffekaka 9mo ago
Will this continue?
celsoazevedo 9mo ago
That might not be the case any more if things get to the point where someone in Europe must use a European alternative.
ragall 9mo ago
That was true a few years ago, but not any more. Covid made a lot of US-based companies sack local developers and actually open offices in Europe. I have friends in Italy who, between 2022 and 2023, moved from local companies to US companies opening offices in Rome and Milano, and got a salary bump from ~30-35k to 80-90k plus bonus and RSUs. Same thing happening all over Europe.
mrweasel 9mo ago
I don't think that's motivated by money. The US companies simply solved more interesting problems. Working for a start up in the Bay area trying to invent a new industry, or scale systems to global is generally more interesting than working on a CRM system for mid-size lumberyards in Sweden. The CRM system pays well enough to have a comfortable lifestyle and provide for your family, but it's a little boring if you're 25 with a shiny new CS degree.
palata 9mo ago
Because many European engineers move to the US does not mean at all that most European engineers move to the US. There are many engineers in Europe. I hear that argument a lot, and honestly it sounds uninformed and downright disrespectful. Some kind of "I am a US developer, we US developers are the best, and the few good European engineers come here. The remaining ones in Europe are dumb". Not to mention that I have talked to quite a few European engineers who could earn a lot more by moving to the US, but just really don't want to live in the US. Maybe there is a reason for that?
honzabe 9mo ago
I think you underestimate how dramatically the perception of the US in Europe changed for the worse. It was already in nose dive during recent months, but the recent days (Greenland crisis) will put a nail in the coffin. I don’t have a crystal ball, but I expect that influx to dry up very soon.
- fatherwavelet 9mo ago
  What is the European alternative to the US military if Russia attacks Europe? This whole thing just seems like the standard hysterical overreaction of people who spend too much time on social media.
  - honzabe 9mo ago
    > What is the European alternative to the US military if Russia attacks Europe? European military. Why do some people act as if European countries had no armies? And even if we had no armies and Russia attacked and totally destroyed us, how is it related to the topic discussed here, which is whether the influx of European engineers to the US will continue or not? > This whole thing just seems like the standard hysterical overreaction of people who spend too much time on social media. Perhaps. I don't think it is, but let's say you are right. How is that relevant? People do not want to go to a country they perceive negatively. Whether that perception is an objective fact or hysteria is, in this context, immaterial.
    - B1FIDO 9mo ago
      Well there is no "European military" per se and there will be no "Russia invades Europe" scenario, because "Europe" is a continent and not a sovereign nation. What would happen is that Russia invades Poland, or Russia invades Romania or Bulgaria or something. Those are Eastern European countries. (I mean they all used to be Soviet bloc anyway.) Or Russia would invade Germany like the good ol' days. So whatever nation they invaded would sic their own armed forces on them, and their allies' too. NATO could jump into the fray. Americans (and perhaps Russians too) often misunderstand how terribly small European nations are, really. They're mostly smaller than individual United States. So, less population, less time to transport stuff, fewer natural resources available in a sovereign context, etc. But lots of national borders. So Russia won't invade "Europe" but they could go into one or more nations on the list.