7 ms·

In a genre where spoilers are devastating, how do we talk about puzzle games?

89 points by tobr 9mo ago

chaps 9mo ago
Really glad they brought up Outer Wilds -- it's exactly the sort of game where the tiniest detail is a spoiler. Knowledge discovery's the game, so any piece of information about the game that doesn't need to be discovered is like cutting ahead to the next chapter in a game. Like playing on someone else's game file. Wish someone would wipe my memories of that game so I can play it again.
- outforwilds 9mo ago
  > Wish someone would wipe my memories of that game so I can play it again. Felt the same for years, now I am doing a new playthrough. I figured, of course I know the solution to the puzzle, but I am hard pressed to remember all the details of how I uncovered that answer, and I know that you can uncover the clues in nearly any order so I know this playthrough will be new in its own way. And I miss the world, and the gameplay.
1qaboutecs 9mo ago
Has anyone played Bean and Nothingness? Great game, but also a great Discord server for this problem, with lots of norms around spoiling. I've been disappointed in some board gaming forums moving to Discord (because it's hard to search for old knowledge), but for puzzle video games it's almost ideal.
outforwilds 9mo ago
Outer Wilds, and imperatively its DLC, are transcendent gaming experiences. Like many, I stopped playing my first time over a frustration with the jet pack and ship movement controls. I returned later, this time determined to master the movement controls only to find that after mastering them you eventually abandon perfect movement for efficiency anyways and perfect gameplay looks a lot like the initial flailings. Anytime you get 'stuck' in the game the answer is always, "what have you tried, what can you try instead?" Illuminating the tendency to presuppose an answer, and grow frustrated when it fails repeatedly. It's certainly a "just play it without looking up anything about it" game. I went in without being spoiled by the "first surprise" that is referenced in this article and was stunned when I figured it out. Swapping FPS violence for scientific and archaeological discovery, and a wholesome story centered on the social bonds of music make for a truly wonderful gaming experience. I highly recommend the game to anyone.
- embedding-shape 9mo ago
  I guess this is the one time maybe reading the comments first saved me of a spoiler I didn't want to be exposed to, so thank you :) Guess I finally need to give it a try before it get accidentally spoiled for me.
- the__alchemist 9mo ago
  The "first surprise" is why I tell people "Just play this game, and don't look up anything about it!". The two games the article has pictures of games are IMO everyone who plays games should play; they are two of the best of all time.
  - bsimpson 9mo ago
    I stopped reading when he started naming things in Outer Wilds. (Perhaps ironic, considering the title.) What are the games you're recommending?
    - xerox13ster 9mo ago
      It is insane to me that they ask that question in the title of the article and then go on to spoil the big first surprise. “How do we talk to people about these games without spoiling it for them? Oh, I know I will spoil it for everybody who reads this article!!! “It’s one of my favorite in the genre (maybe the best) and it requires a level of secrecy because it takes away the wow factor if you learn details about it early, but ANYWAYS here’s some details about it!!!!!!!!”
    - the__alchemist 9mo ago
      Outer Wilds and Blue Prince
- Terr_ 9mo ago
  In terms of things I'd say to encourage someone to play without spoilers, I think I'd focus on mechanics, like: 1. The game has depth to its locations that shows up on repeated visits. Expect to return with better tools/information to see new things. Shortcuts will reveal themselves over time. 2. There is an in-game tool that takes notes for you, hints at undiscovered content, and can provide on-screen waypoints to help you navigate. 3. Don't be too worried about your (avatar's) personal safety, or about rushing. Later there may be times where both might matter for your goals, but the game is designed to support trial-and-error.
guerrilla 9mo ago
Come to r/myst. I think we do alright. It's true that it's its own skill though. You have to learn to refer to things in vague terms at least.
- OkayPhysicist 9mo ago
  If you like Myst, try the RHEM series. Not quite as compelling a setting/story (though that's praise of Myst far more than any put down on RHEM), much, much better puzzles, with the same "Slideshow of 3D rendered environments" presentation.
  - lelandfe 9mo ago
    If you like Myst, try Blue Prince.
alikim 9mo ago
I really really love both Outer Wilds and the DLC and think the reddit community, when asked, does a great job of providing advice or tips for specific situations without revealing too much.
robinhouston 9mo ago
> I’ve met plenty of thinky players who reject any help not contained within the game itself—I’ve been that person—but these days, with so much to play, I simply don’t have the heart to ironman a puzzle for hours and hours just to maintain a sense of pride. I’d rather see more of what a game has to offer. Sue me. I’m not going to sue the author, obviously; but it sounds as though he enjoys puzzle games in a different way and for a different reason from me, and I find it hard to relate to his feelings about them. If your plan is to cheat as soon as you get stuck, I can’t imagine why you would choose to play a puzzle game at all. For me, what I enjoy about puzzle games is precisely the immense satisfaction that comes from conquering a well-designed puzzle after a struggle.
- bombcar 9mo ago
  I think this is why you have to be playing a few puzzle games "at the same time" - so when you get blocked/stuck in one, you can work on another. I will admit that sometimes once I figure out "the trick" to the puzzle, I'll cheat and grab the solution rather than working it out by hand.
  - epiccoleman 9mo ago
    A little different than what you're saying, but you reminded me of an experience I had with Inside - which I enjoyed a lot overall, but - There were a number of puzzles involving pushing boxes around, and something that really irritated me was that I would understand the solution but then have to go implement it by moving around and doing the pushing with somewhat clunky controls. It was sort of interesting from a gameplay perspective - that feeling of "eureka" followed by "dammit, now I've gotta do this schlep work".
    - bombcar 9mo ago
      I found that many times with some of the new Zelda games - ok, what do I have, how do I do this, hhmmm, aha! And then I know what I need to do, I know it's doable, and then I get frustrated trying to do it in game.
  - 9mo ago
tialaramex 9mo ago
A mini version of this in Mario Maker (and thus MM2 which is currently playable) is the Knowledge Check Point. Mario Maker 2 has a "Check Point" system where the software remembers whether Mario has reached one of two "Check Points" in the course and if so resets Mario to that point if/when he dies. You can only have zero, one or two such "Check Points". This leads to two important phenomena 1. Antis. A Soft Lock is a situation where Mario can't win, but also can't die, this is extremely frustrating because the player must start over, losing any progress. A good course designer ensures this never happens. But a twisted course designer does so by making it possible yet extremely difficult to die in this situation, thus the art of the "Anti-Soft-Lock" or just "Anti". The player is tricked into entering a situation in which they must complete some very difficult tasks, not to win but just to die and keep playing from a check point they've reached. 2. Knowledge Check Points. With only two CPs, a really elaborate course must either stretch considerably between the CPs, meaning players who die between CPs must re-do a lot of work and that's annoying OR invent a way to re-use them. There are tricks to re-use exactly two CPs plus the "Red Coins" from Mario which are kept when Mario dies, but a cleverer trick is to just have the player learn something which changes how they will behave. My favourite KCP is an MM2 level where the player can't win... until they realise there's a way to obtain an important power up right at the start of the course, which then changes how they tackle everything else and opens up a route to success. The dead end you'd reach if you don't know about this, reveals that hidden power up.
- a_t48 9mo ago
  Hello fellow MM troll level enjoyer. :) perhaps we have mutual friends
  - tialaramex 9mo ago
    I am not in any trust shapes whatsoever, I'm just another person who was overjoyed to see that Geek did a fundraiser :)
    - a_t48 9mo ago
      Fair. I’m more in the kaizo/twitch community (or was anyhow), but I’ve seen a bit of Geek.
zeta0134 9mo ago
The strategy I see with the most success in online communities is something to the effect of, "If it appears in the trailer, or what is very obviously the earlygame tutorial area, it's basically fair game. Otherwise use spoiler tags." Some puzzle games are best experienced entirely unspoiled (Outer Wilds) and others benefit from sortof a layered hints approach. Steam guides for Blue Prince are fantastic about this, and were extremely welcome to me once the RNG nature of the game stopped being exciting and started being a tedious obstacle. There's nothing quite like needing to spend several real world hours to try a puzzle solution that may be a complete waste of time, simply because the game doesn't really like to spawn the needed rooms (in an acceptable configuration) very often.
LelouBil 9mo ago
And there's also Tunic, that is both a zelda-like action RPG and and information game ! So it's still very fun to replay it with a randomizer for example.
- krige 9mo ago
  Tunic is probably my favorite game that has multiple "Aha!" moments when all the hints and puzzles so far suddenly click in a different way.
phreack 9mo ago
I took something away from this article. While I enjoyed Blue Prince very much even though I played it alone, the surprisingly most enjoyable aspect of the game came externally - it was (and is) following my friends' journey through the game and being there to give them custom made consensual spoiler-free, hints when they needed. Some times simply being told you're barking up a very wrong tree or that you don't have enough information yet is exactly what you need to not get burnt out. I keep wondering if there's a way to have that baked into the game. Something to brainstorm.
- Kreutzer 9mo ago
  Yeah, I was like your friend, fumbling through the game and texting him to receive some hints on how to proceed further, as I lost patience with the repetitive nature of the game. Still fun though. >I keep wondering if there's a way to have that baked into the game. Demon Souls' system of leaving little messages behind for other players is sort of similar.
hnlmorg 9mo ago
I've found LLMs are quite good for tailored game hints where you don't want more of the story or puzzle ruined. Rather than looking up walkthroughs and hoping you don't accidentally digest something you didn't mean to, you can ask the LLM very specific questions and ask it to only answer with very specific answers. I'm not someone who uses LLMs heavily, but I've found this kind of usecase suited my needs very nicely.
xerox13ster 9mo ago
The utter inanity of asking, ‘how do you talk about puzzle games when spoilers are devastating’ and then spoiling the supposedly best game in the genre in the next friggin paragraph is driving me absolutely wild.
- vintermann 9mo ago
  That game is 7 years old. But it seems to me spoilers are mostly for narrative puzzle games, or secret twist / riddle puzzle games. There are a lot of puzzle games where you either can't look up the solution (games like Demon Bluff) or where looking up the solution/hints mostly spoils one level at worst (e.g. Baba is You).
BoppreH 9mo ago
The Reddit community of Outer Wilds maintains an extremely comprehensive list of recommendations, in the style of "if you liked this aspect of the game, try these other games": https://www.reddit.com/r/outerwilds/wiki/index/gamerecs https://www.reddit.com/r/outerwilds/wiki/index/gamerecs I can vouch for Outer Wilds and Tunic being masterpieces, with Blue Prince getting a B+ from me.
- maest 9mo ago
  Tunic's true ending is unfairly difficult to find. Fun, and obviously attainable, but unfair.
  - BoppreH 9mo ago
    It asks for a very different skill level than Outer Wilds, for sure. On the other hand, it gets extra points for the in-game manual booklet. The mechanics, the metaphor, and the gorgeous execution should be required material in game design classes.
account42 9mo ago
> We live in a time where innocently surfing the web can result in seeing a single screenshot and completely ruining a game A game where seeing a single screenshot ruins the experience wasn't very substantial to begin with. > Because information equals progress in this genre, there’s typically no way to brute force the path forward whenever you find yourself truly stuck. Except that is almost always possible - games by their very nature are usually very restricted in what you can do which makes exploration of all possible options possible. But usually better would be trying to reason about the problem. Looking up outside help is and has always been equivalent to giving up - which is fine if you don't want to solve the puzzle but definitely not needed to progress if you are patient.
- polytely 9mo ago
  > A game where seeing a single screenshot ruins the experience wasn't very substantial to begin with. I don't think that follows at all, I'm currently working through Blue Prince and the way in which that game gives you information later on which completely recontextualizes things you have encountered earlier makes it so that a screenshot of something could definitely rob you of experiencing that moment, which is a big part of the joy of that game.
  - tialaramex 9mo ago
    That is true, but, one of the lovely things about Blue Prince is that there's a lot of it so it's very difficult to spoil much of it in one screenshot.
jszymborski 9mo ago
Look, 90s era point and click games are tonnes of fun, but also many of them were designed by sadists. Sue me if I look up a GameFAQs walkthrough.
tedsanders 9mo ago
I disagree with the author that there’s no automated solution for getting spoiler-free help. I have found ChatGPT excellent for getting minor help without spoilers while playing Blue Prince. I can ask it things like “I’m playing Blue Prince and I want to avoid all spoilers. <question>? Use search. Answer only ‘yes’ / ‘no’ / ‘clarification needed’.” Perhaps one difference between the author and me is that I usually have closed-ended questions rather than open-ended questions like “give me a minimal clue that’s helpful but not obvious”, for which I’d trust ChatGPT far less.

89 points by tobr 9mo ago

chaps 9mo ago

Really glad they brought up Outer Wilds -- it's exactly the sort of game where the tiniest detail is a spoiler. Knowledge discovery's the game, so any piece of information about the game that doesn't need to be discovered is like cutting ahead to the next chapter in a game. Like playing on someone else's game file. Wish someone would wipe my memories of that game so I can play it again.

outforwilds 9mo ago
> Wish someone would wipe my memories of that game so I can play it again. Felt the same for years, now I am doing a new playthrough. I figured, of course I know the solution to the puzzle, but I am hard pressed to remember all the details of how I uncovered that answer, and I know that you can uncover the clues in nearly any order so I know this playthrough will be new in its own way. And I miss the world, and the gameplay.

1qaboutecs 9mo ago

Has anyone played Bean and Nothingness? Great game, but also a great Discord server for this problem, with lots of norms around spoiling. I've been disappointed in some board gaming forums moving to Discord (because it's hard to search for old knowledge), but for puzzle video games it's almost ideal.

outforwilds 9mo ago

Outer Wilds, and imperatively its DLC, are transcendent gaming experiences. Like many, I stopped playing my first time over a frustration with the jet pack and ship movement controls. I returned later, this time determined to master the movement controls only to find that after mastering them you eventually abandon perfect movement for efficiency anyways and perfect gameplay looks a lot like the initial flailings. Anytime you get 'stuck' in the game the answer is always, "what have you tried, what can you try instead?" Illuminating the tendency to presuppose an answer, and grow frustrated when it fails repeatedly. It's certainly a "just play it without looking up anything about it" game. I went in without being spoiled by the "first surprise" that is referenced in this article and was stunned when I figured it out. Swapping FPS violence for scientific and archaeological discovery, and a wholesome story centered on the social bonds of music make for a truly wonderful gaming experience. I highly recommend the game to anyone.

embedding-shape 9mo ago
I guess this is the one time maybe reading the comments first saved me of a spoiler I didn't want to be exposed to, so thank you :) Guess I finally need to give it a try before it get accidentally spoiled for me.
the__alchemist 9mo ago
The "first surprise" is why I tell people "Just play this game, and don't look up anything about it!". The two games the article has pictures of games are IMO everyone who plays games should play; they are two of the best of all time.
- bsimpson 9mo ago
  I stopped reading when he started naming things in Outer Wilds. (Perhaps ironic, considering the title.) What are the games you're recommending?
  - xerox13ster 9mo ago
    It is insane to me that they ask that question in the title of the article and then go on to spoil the big first surprise. “How do we talk to people about these games without spoiling it for them? Oh, I know I will spoil it for everybody who reads this article!!! “It’s one of my favorite in the genre (maybe the best) and it requires a level of secrecy because it takes away the wow factor if you learn details about it early, but ANYWAYS here’s some details about it!!!!!!!!”
  - the__alchemist 9mo ago
    Outer Wilds and Blue Prince
Terr_ 9mo ago
In terms of things I'd say to encourage someone to play without spoilers, I think I'd focus on mechanics, like: 1. The game has depth to its locations that shows up on repeated visits. Expect to return with better tools/information to see new things. Shortcuts will reveal themselves over time. 2. There is an in-game tool that takes notes for you, hints at undiscovered content, and can provide on-screen waypoints to help you navigate. 3. Don't be too worried about your (avatar's) personal safety, or about rushing. Later there may be times where both might matter for your goals, but the game is designed to support trial-and-error.

guerrilla 9mo ago

Come to r/myst. I think we do alright. It's true that it's its own skill though. You have to learn to refer to things in vague terms at least.

OkayPhysicist 9mo ago
If you like Myst, try the RHEM series. Not quite as compelling a setting/story (though that's praise of Myst far more than any put down on RHEM), much, much better puzzles, with the same "Slideshow of 3D rendered environments" presentation.
- lelandfe 9mo ago
  If you like Myst, try Blue Prince.

alikim 9mo ago

I really really love both Outer Wilds and the DLC and think the reddit community, when asked, does a great job of providing advice or tips for specific situations without revealing too much.

robinhouston 9mo ago

> I’ve met plenty of thinky players who reject any help not contained within the game itself—I’ve been that person—but these days, with so much to play, I simply don’t have the heart to ironman a puzzle for hours and hours just to maintain a sense of pride. I’d rather see more of what a game has to offer. Sue me. I’m not going to sue the author, obviously; but it sounds as though he enjoys puzzle games in a different way and for a different reason from me, and I find it hard to relate to his feelings about them. If your plan is to cheat as soon as you get stuck, I can’t imagine why you would choose to play a puzzle game at all. For me, what I enjoy about puzzle games is precisely the immense satisfaction that comes from conquering a well-designed puzzle after a struggle.

bombcar 9mo ago
I think this is why you have to be playing a few puzzle games "at the same time" - so when you get blocked/stuck in one, you can work on another. I will admit that sometimes once I figure out "the trick" to the puzzle, I'll cheat and grab the solution rather than working it out by hand.
- epiccoleman 9mo ago
  A little different than what you're saying, but you reminded me of an experience I had with Inside - which I enjoyed a lot overall, but - There were a number of puzzles involving pushing boxes around, and something that really irritated me was that I would understand the solution but then have to go implement it by moving around and doing the pushing with somewhat clunky controls. It was sort of interesting from a gameplay perspective - that feeling of "eureka" followed by "dammit, now I've gotta do this schlep work".
  - bombcar 9mo ago
    I found that many times with some of the new Zelda games - ok, what do I have, how do I do this, hhmmm, aha! And then I know what I need to do, I know it's doable, and then I get frustrated trying to do it in game.
- 9mo ago

tialaramex 9mo ago

A mini version of this in Mario Maker (and thus MM2 which is currently playable) is the Knowledge Check Point. Mario Maker 2 has a "Check Point" system where the software remembers whether Mario has reached one of two "Check Points" in the course and if so resets Mario to that point if/when he dies. You can only have zero, one or two such "Check Points". This leads to two important phenomena 1. Antis. A Soft Lock is a situation where Mario can't win, but also can't die, this is extremely frustrating because the player must start over, losing any progress. A good course designer ensures this never happens. But a twisted course designer does so by making it possible yet extremely difficult to die in this situation, thus the art of the "Anti-Soft-Lock" or just "Anti". The player is tricked into entering a situation in which they must complete some very difficult tasks, not to win but just to die and keep playing from a check point they've reached. 2. Knowledge Check Points. With only two CPs, a really elaborate course must either stretch considerably between the CPs, meaning players who die between CPs must re-do a lot of work and that's annoying OR invent a way to re-use them. There are tricks to re-use exactly two CPs plus the "Red Coins" from Mario which are kept when Mario dies, but a cleverer trick is to just have the player learn something which changes how they will behave. My favourite KCP is an MM2 level where the player can't win... until they realise there's a way to obtain an important power up right at the start of the course, which then changes how they tackle everything else and opens up a route to success. The dead end you'd reach if you don't know about this, reveals that hidden power up.

a_t48 9mo ago
Hello fellow MM troll level enjoyer. :) perhaps we have mutual friends
- tialaramex 9mo ago
  I am not in any trust shapes whatsoever, I'm just another person who was overjoyed to see that Geek did a fundraiser :)
  - a_t48 9mo ago
    Fair. I’m more in the kaizo/twitch community (or was anyhow), but I’ve seen a bit of Geek.

zeta0134 9mo ago

The strategy I see with the most success in online communities is something to the effect of, "If it appears in the trailer, or what is very obviously the earlygame tutorial area, it's basically fair game. Otherwise use spoiler tags." Some puzzle games are best experienced entirely unspoiled (Outer Wilds) and others benefit from sortof a layered hints approach. Steam guides for Blue Prince are fantastic about this, and were extremely welcome to me once the RNG nature of the game stopped being exciting and started being a tedious obstacle. There's nothing quite like needing to spend several real world hours to try a puzzle solution that may be a complete waste of time, simply because the game doesn't really like to spawn the needed rooms (in an acceptable configuration) very often.

LelouBil 9mo ago

And there's also Tunic, that is both a zelda-like action RPG and and information game ! So it's still very fun to replay it with a randomizer for example.

krige 9mo ago
Tunic is probably my favorite game that has multiple "Aha!" moments when all the hints and puzzles so far suddenly click in a different way.

phreack 9mo ago

I took something away from this article. While I enjoyed Blue Prince very much even though I played it alone, the surprisingly most enjoyable aspect of the game came externally - it was (and is) following my friends' journey through the game and being there to give them custom made consensual spoiler-free, hints when they needed. Some times simply being told you're barking up a very wrong tree or that you don't have enough information yet is exactly what you need to not get burnt out. I keep wondering if there's a way to have that baked into the game. Something to brainstorm.

Kreutzer 9mo ago
Yeah, I was like your friend, fumbling through the game and texting him to receive some hints on how to proceed further, as I lost patience with the repetitive nature of the game. Still fun though. >I keep wondering if there's a way to have that baked into the game. Demon Souls' system of leaving little messages behind for other players is sort of similar.

hnlmorg 9mo ago

I've found LLMs are quite good for tailored game hints where you don't want more of the story or puzzle ruined. Rather than looking up walkthroughs and hoping you don't accidentally digest something you didn't mean to, you can ask the LLM very specific questions and ask it to only answer with very specific answers. I'm not someone who uses LLMs heavily, but I've found this kind of usecase suited my needs very nicely.

xerox13ster 9mo ago

The utter inanity of asking, ‘how do you talk about puzzle games when spoilers are devastating’ and then spoiling the supposedly best game in the genre in the next friggin paragraph is driving me absolutely wild.

vintermann 9mo ago
That game is 7 years old. But it seems to me spoilers are mostly for narrative puzzle games, or secret twist / riddle puzzle games. There are a lot of puzzle games where you either can't look up the solution (games like Demon Bluff) or where looking up the solution/hints mostly spoils one level at worst (e.g. Baba is You).

BoppreH 9mo ago

The Reddit community of Outer Wilds maintains an extremely comprehensive list of recommendations, in the style of "if you liked this aspect of the game, try these other games": https://www.reddit.com/r/outerwilds/wiki/index/gamerecs https://www.reddit.com/r/outerwilds/wiki/index/gamerecs I can vouch for Outer Wilds and Tunic being masterpieces, with Blue Prince getting a B+ from me.

maest 9mo ago
Tunic's true ending is unfairly difficult to find. Fun, and obviously attainable, but unfair.
- BoppreH 9mo ago
  It asks for a very different skill level than Outer Wilds, for sure. On the other hand, it gets extra points for the in-game manual booklet. The mechanics, the metaphor, and the gorgeous execution should be required material in game design classes.

account42 9mo ago

> We live in a time where innocently surfing the web can result in seeing a single screenshot and completely ruining a game A game where seeing a single screenshot ruins the experience wasn't very substantial to begin with. > Because information equals progress in this genre, there’s typically no way to brute force the path forward whenever you find yourself truly stuck. Except that is almost always possible - games by their very nature are usually very restricted in what you can do which makes exploration of all possible options possible. But usually better would be trying to reason about the problem. Looking up outside help is and has always been equivalent to giving up - which is fine if you don't want to solve the puzzle but definitely not needed to progress if you are patient.

polytely 9mo ago
> A game where seeing a single screenshot ruins the experience wasn't very substantial to begin with. I don't think that follows at all, I'm currently working through Blue Prince and the way in which that game gives you information later on which completely recontextualizes things you have encountered earlier makes it so that a screenshot of something could definitely rob you of experiencing that moment, which is a big part of the joy of that game.
- tialaramex 9mo ago
  That is true, but, one of the lovely things about Blue Prince is that there's a lot of it so it's very difficult to spoil much of it in one screenshot.

jszymborski 9mo ago

Look, 90s era point and click games are tonnes of fun, but also many of them were designed by sadists. Sue me if I look up a GameFAQs walkthrough.

tedsanders 9mo ago

I disagree with the author that there’s no automated solution for getting spoiler-free help. I have found ChatGPT excellent for getting minor help without spoilers while playing Blue Prince. I can ask it things like “I’m playing Blue Prince and I want to avoid all spoilers. <question>? Use search. Answer only ‘yes’ / ‘no’ / ‘clarification needed’.” Perhaps one difference between the author and me is that I usually have closed-ended questions rather than open-ended questions like “give me a minimal clue that’s helpful but not obvious”, for which I’d trust ChatGPT far less.