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That is backwards. NIST FIPS, especially FIPS 140, are explicitly security standards for cryptographic modules. They exist to define and validate security requi

That is backwards. NIST FIPS, especially FIPS 140, are explicitly security standards for cryptographic modules. They exist to define and validate security requirements and to give agencies a security metric for procurement. Security is central to the standard even if buyers also use it for compliance and contracting.

pseudohadamard 9mo ago
And when has FIPS certification made a product more secure than the non-certified version? By which I mean, give examples of actual cases in which hackers were stopped by the expensive FIPS-certified version but not by the equivalent non-certified one.
- firesteelrain 9mo ago
  Not really the right question. FIPS doesn’t stop ‘hackers’ like a forcefield. It’s a validated baseline for crypto modules (RNGs, key handling, approved modes, self-tests). The security win is fewer crypto footguns and more assurance, not a dramatic war story.
  - pseudohadamard 9mo ago
    It's exactly the right question, "what (demonstrable) value are you getting from this?". Having been through several FIPS certifications I can say that it added nothing to the security of the product, in fact if anything it reduced the security because of all the silly-walk stuff that had to be added. In particular the algorithm certs are essentially worthless because if you get (say) AES wrong you'll find that out the very first time you use it, with or without a NIST algorithm cert, and beyond that for level 1 which is what 99% of products go for it's mostly a paperwork-production exercise and the aforementioned silly-walk code changes. About 30+ years ago it was somewhat useful for keeping out the homebrew snake-oil crypto that was common at the time, but since you can find (again as an example) AES code in the implementation language of your choice and license of your choice within seconds that's not been an issue for some time.
    - firesteelrain 9mo ago
      Fair. Level 1 can be heavy on paperwork, and compliance code can add complexity. But ‘algorithm certs are worthless’ is overstated: lots of crypto failures are silent misuse (modes/nonces/RNG/key handling), not ‘AES won’t decrypt.’ FIPS isn’t a magic shield, it’s a baseline control. Whether it’s net-positive depends on how much it slows upgrades and how disciplined the team already is.

pseudohadamard 9mo ago

And when has FIPS certification made a product more secure than the non-certified version? By which I mean, give examples of actual cases in which hackers were stopped by the expensive FIPS-certified version but not by the equivalent non-certified one.

firesteelrain 9mo ago
Not really the right question. FIPS doesn’t stop ‘hackers’ like a forcefield. It’s a validated baseline for crypto modules (RNGs, key handling, approved modes, self-tests). The security win is fewer crypto footguns and more assurance, not a dramatic war story.
- pseudohadamard 9mo ago
  It's exactly the right question, "what (demonstrable) value are you getting from this?". Having been through several FIPS certifications I can say that it added nothing to the security of the product, in fact if anything it reduced the security because of all the silly-walk stuff that had to be added. In particular the algorithm certs are essentially worthless because if you get (say) AES wrong you'll find that out the very first time you use it, with or without a NIST algorithm cert, and beyond that for level 1 which is what 99% of products go for it's mostly a paperwork-production exercise and the aforementioned silly-walk code changes. About 30+ years ago it was somewhat useful for keeping out the homebrew snake-oil crypto that was common at the time, but since you can find (again as an example) AES code in the implementation language of your choice and license of your choice within seconds that's not been an issue for some time.
  - firesteelrain 9mo ago
    Fair. Level 1 can be heavy on paperwork, and compliance code can add complexity. But ‘algorithm certs are worthless’ is overstated: lots of crypto failures are silent misuse (modes/nonces/RNG/key handling), not ‘AES won’t decrypt.’ FIPS isn’t a magic shield, it’s a baseline control. Whether it’s net-positive depends on how much it slows upgrades and how disciplined the team already is.