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> ... some of the more recent complex language features This isn't recent. The approach that Swift took had this path locked in from the start, the (d)evoluti
by mpweiher 9mo ago
> ... some of the more recent complex language features
This isn't recent. The approach that Swift took had this path locked in from the start, the (d)evolution towards ever more spiraling complexity was inevitable from the initial choices.
And this is not 20/20 hindsight, a lot of people, including yours truly, were saying that fron the very start. As an example, take initialization:
2014:
https://blog.metaobject.com/2014/06/remove-features-for-greater-power-aka.html https://blog.metaobject.com/2014/06/remove-features-for-grea...
The swift book has 16 rules and 14 pages just on object initialization. Chris replied in the comments: "the complexity is necessary for <feature we want> and thus simplicity must give way". My reply: "the <feature you want> is incompatible with simplicity and thus must give way".
2020:
called it!
https://blog.metaobject.com/2020/04/swift-initialization-swiftui-and.html https://blog.metaobject.com/2020/04/swift-initialization-swi...
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Or the syntax:
https://blog.metaobject.com/2020/06/the-curious-case-of-swift-adoption-of.html https://blog.metaobject.com/2020/06/the-curious-case-of-swif...
→ Swift included all of Smalltalk's keyword message syntax as a special case of a special case of the method call syntax.
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Rob Rix:
“Swift is a crescendo of special cases stopping just short of the general; the result is complexity in the semantics, complexity in the behaviour (i.e. bugs), and complexity in use (i.e. workarounds).”
https://www.quora.com/Which-features-overcomplicate-Swift-What-should-be-removed?share=1 https://www.quora.com/Which-features-overcomplicate-Swift-Wh...
- pinnochio 9mo agoI was excited and optimistic about transitioning to Swift in the Swift 3 days. By Swift 5 I was pining for Objective-C. One of the arguments for switching to Swift was that it would be easier for new programmers. Now I think it's more of a barrier than Obj-C ever was.
- mpweiher 9mo agoI don't pine. I use. Although more and more I am shifting to Objective-Smalltalk: https://objective.st https://objective.st
- pinnochio 9mo agoThat's neat. Unfortunately, in my place of work, going back to Obj-C isn't an option.
- ben_w 9mo ago> I was excited and optimistic about transitioning to Swift in the Swift 3 days. By Swift 5 I was pining for Objective-C. Swift 5 isn't that bad (even if result builders felt like a weird hack to make SwiftUI possible and I dislike SwiftUI massively) but around that point the language has increasingly made me think "why did this happen when Java already existed?"
- mpweiher 9mo agoThat was my thought from the beginning.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]