7 ms·

"Mobility is possible between all classes." So it isn't classless?

by yunnpp 9mo ago

ChrisMarshallNY 9mo ago
Exactly. We have classes. We don’t have birthright castes. Different animals. That’s why I wouldn’t say that “the US is a classless society.” It was kind of awkward phrasing. Sorry.
- aebtebeten 9mo ago
  Not sure if the birthright castes are any more stably stratified: according to https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report.pdf#page=7 https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report.... , the US actually ranked worse in 2020 than the UK for social mobility? (for 2025, see https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Degrees-of-Difference.pdf https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Degre... )
  - ChrisMarshallNY 9mo ago
    Still different from birthright castes. With a birthright caste, you're stuck. Even if you make a lot of money, you're still an untouchable. In the US, if you make a lot of money, you can become upper class, even if you still have some "rough edges." I actually know a number of folks that have done exactly that. I also know folks that have done the opposite. Started off on top of the heap, and ended up skint. We definitely have strata. Hollywood stars represent an interesting one. They are sort of what folks aspire to be, but they are nowhere near the top of the heap. In the UK, Elon Musk would never be a toff; no matter how much he has, but in the US, he's King of the Hill.
    - direwolf20 9mo ago
      How do people know your caste? Is it on your ID document?
      - deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]
      - gsf_emergency_6 9mo ago
        In India maybe. In the US (or some other places) it might be easier to have someone analyze your tax docs. "So what do you do?" is not a popular conversation opener these days..
      - deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]
    - aebtebeten 9mo ago
      I guess that's where we part ways: just as the US is the world's richest 3rd* world country, I'd call ERM the richest upper-middle-class person in the US, but not exactly upper-class... (just as a datum point: ERM is the opposite of an éminence grise, in just about any of its senses) * in the economic sense. In the political sense, by definition the US is 1st world [after what happened to Yugoslavia (former leader of the non-aligned movement) I'm surprised Carney is brave enough to attempt to revive a "2nd World" ... surprised; but pleased!].
      - gsf_emergency_6 9mo ago
        Quick delve: American class-based exceptionality gyrates around Norman Mailer's "philosophical psychopath" Which Hollywood stars (mostly from the "middle-middle class" mentioned in my earlier link) are. Professional hipsters? https://intellectualtakeout.org/2019/03/the-banality-of-the-modern-hipster/ https://intellectualtakeout.org/2019/03/the-banality-of-the-... >remember G.K. Chesterton’s lesson about how “two opposite passions may blaze beside each other Wonderfully anachronistic essay on a wonderfully anachronistic opus, oh wow, I must have meant "timeless" somewhere https://muse.jhu.edu/article/528839/summary https://muse.jhu.edu/article/528839/summary Compare: SV founders (including "broligarchs"(?)) will never say "cowboys" in vain, but East Coast financiers might :) (How familiar are you with 1990s-2010s neo-hipsters?) Edit: MPAA^W AMPAS will never think secret thoughts of "British upper middle class theatre" outside the occasional hire (for "diversity", these days). Is that why PG and Trevor moved to the UK ;)? It's not reactionary centrism, but it's also not progressive centrism.. to always say never!
        aebtebeten 9mo ago
        (Mostly just the jokes: Q. How did the hipster wind up in the emergency room? A. He fired his 3D-printed gun before it was cool. ) Not sure what you're getting at with cowboys, for me the intersection with SV is/was Gibson's console cowboy — "In the bars [Case had] frequented as a cowboy hotshot, the elite stance involved a certain relaxed contempt for the flesh. The body was meat. Case fell into the prison of his own flesh." What is the opposite of relentless searching for the frontier? cottage-core? Should we add Dolphus Raymond to the "white negro" pantheon? How about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezz_Mezzrow#Personal_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezz_Mezzrow#Personal_life ? EDIT: you might be interested in Wister, "The Virginian" (1902) as a Trope Codifier for the cowboy: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/1298/pg1298.txt https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/1298/pg1298.txt
    - yunnpp 9mo ago
      Who cares if the caste is birthright or not. If there is no class mobility, there is no practical difference between the two systems. Potato, potatoe.
      - gsf_emergency_6 9mo ago
        There is class mobility: anyone can be a hipster-- in 2001 Theses days, it's about migrating to those basements of the "interwebs" where the gen alpha trolls hang out.. little red book? https://archive.ph/2026.01.24-032347/https://aletteraday.substack.com/p/letter-85-paul-graham-and-jessica#:~:text=basement%20in%20Harvard%20Square https://archive.ph/2026.01.24-032347/https://aletteraday.sub...
        aebtebeten 9mo ago
        hmmm: an arbitrary finite automaton can be decomposed into a collection of edges; can we decompose a reasonable philosophy into a collection of memes/greentexts/whatever the kids are doing these days? (for that matter, I just assume the modal HN'er is ~13 now, but maybe that's an artifact of how the front page dynamic goldfishes the conversation?) EDIT: little red book or little red pill? https://dakotavadams.substack.com/p/redpill-op https://dakotavadams.substack.com/p/redpill-op > I'd seen posters from the now fairly infamous 4chan /pol/, or Politics, board raiding other parts of the website in character as minorities or leftists before. How about centres troll the extremes, as in https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GgTm194WIAEqak3?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GgTm194WIAEqak3?format=jpg&name=... ? (the Adams quote implies, whether the horseshoe be real or artificial, you'd largely be trolling the same people anyway?)
        gsf_emergency_6 9mo ago
        Jack (and Leopold) seem centrist to me Are they real people?
        gsf_emergency_6 9mo ago
        Lyingflat was a red herring then? Seems like the idea that your (our?) concept of bigotry could be profoundly misguided could be the real unspeakable.. Have you read Lawrence of Arabia recently? The dividing line maybe: I see --(well, viscerally) whom you may label-- bigots as adults (who may or may not require medical intervention); and you-- as children? To help you out on the trolling, I'm usually triggered by upper-middle class takes on Christ, like this guy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46733577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46733577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46541901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46541901 :) That is not even schizo.. (aha, PH's concept of "kidult" "resonates" strongly with me) Meyer-Hofstede again..? Add Tocqueville, even though he couldn't travel to all the allies. This is I make effort to speak nicely to alephnerd, am glad the mods(?) unflagged me!! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46733802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46733802 (I'm also excited by Carneyism btw)

"Mobility is possible between all classes." So it isn't classless?

by yunnpp 9mo ago

"Mobility is possible between all classes." So it isn't classless?

Exactly. We have classes. We don’t have birthright castes. Different animals. That’s why I wouldn’t say that “the US is a classless society.” It was kind of awkward phrasing. Sorry.

aebtebeten 9mo ago
Not sure if the birthright castes are any more stably stratified: according to https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report.pdf#page=7 https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report.... , the US actually ranked worse in 2020 than the UK for social mobility? (for 2025, see https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Degrees-of-Difference.pdf https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Degre... )
- ChrisMarshallNY 9mo ago
  Still different from birthright castes. With a birthright caste, you're stuck. Even if you make a lot of money, you're still an untouchable. In the US, if you make a lot of money, you can become upper class, even if you still have some "rough edges." I actually know a number of folks that have done exactly that. I also know folks that have done the opposite. Started off on top of the heap, and ended up skint. We definitely have strata. Hollywood stars represent an interesting one. They are sort of what folks aspire to be, but they are nowhere near the top of the heap. In the UK, Elon Musk would never be a toff; no matter how much he has, but in the US, he's King of the Hill.
  - direwolf20 9mo ago
    How do people know your caste? Is it on your ID document?
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
    - gsf_emergency_6 9mo ago
      In India maybe. In the US (or some other places) it might be easier to have someone analyze your tax docs. "So what do you do?" is not a popular conversation opener these days..
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
  - aebtebeten 9mo ago
    I guess that's where we part ways: just as the US is the world's richest 3rd* world country, I'd call ERM the richest upper-middle-class person in the US, but not exactly upper-class... (just as a datum point: ERM is the opposite of an éminence grise, in just about any of its senses) * in the economic sense. In the political sense, by definition the US is 1st world [after what happened to Yugoslavia (former leader of the non-aligned movement) I'm surprised Carney is brave enough to attempt to revive a "2nd World" ... surprised; but pleased!].
    - gsf_emergency_6 9mo ago
      Quick delve: American class-based exceptionality gyrates around Norman Mailer's "philosophical psychopath" Which Hollywood stars (mostly from the "middle-middle class" mentioned in my earlier link) are. Professional hipsters? https://intellectualtakeout.org/2019/03/the-banality-of-the-modern-hipster/ https://intellectualtakeout.org/2019/03/the-banality-of-the-... >remember G.K. Chesterton’s lesson about how “two opposite passions may blaze beside each other Wonderfully anachronistic essay on a wonderfully anachronistic opus, oh wow, I must have meant "timeless" somewhere https://muse.jhu.edu/article/528839/summary https://muse.jhu.edu/article/528839/summary Compare: SV founders (including "broligarchs"(?)) will never say "cowboys" in vain, but East Coast financiers might :) (How familiar are you with 1990s-2010s neo-hipsters?) Edit: MPAA^W AMPAS will never think secret thoughts of "British upper middle class theatre" outside the occasional hire (for "diversity", these days). Is that why PG and Trevor moved to the UK ;)? It's not reactionary centrism, but it's also not progressive centrism.. to always say never!
      - aebtebeten 9mo ago
        (Mostly just the jokes: Q. How did the hipster wind up in the emergency room? A. He fired his 3D-printed gun before it was cool. ) Not sure what you're getting at with cowboys, for me the intersection with SV is/was Gibson's console cowboy — "In the bars [Case had] frequented as a cowboy hotshot, the elite stance involved a certain relaxed contempt for the flesh. The body was meat. Case fell into the prison of his own flesh." What is the opposite of relentless searching for the frontier? cottage-core? Should we add Dolphus Raymond to the "white negro" pantheon? How about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezz_Mezzrow#Personal_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezz_Mezzrow#Personal_life ? EDIT: you might be interested in Wister, "The Virginian" (1902) as a Trope Codifier for the cowboy: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/1298/pg1298.txt https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/1298/pg1298.txt
  - yunnpp 9mo ago
    Who cares if the caste is birthright or not. If there is no class mobility, there is no practical difference between the two systems. Potato, potatoe.
    - gsf_emergency_6 9mo ago
      There is class mobility: anyone can be a hipster-- in 2001 Theses days, it's about migrating to those basements of the "interwebs" where the gen alpha trolls hang out.. little red book? https://archive.ph/2026.01.24-032347/https://aletteraday.substack.com/p/letter-85-paul-graham-and-jessica#:~:text=basement%20in%20Harvard%20Square https://archive.ph/2026.01.24-032347/https://aletteraday.sub...
      - aebtebeten 9mo ago
        hmmm: an arbitrary finite automaton can be decomposed into a collection of edges; can we decompose a reasonable philosophy into a collection of memes/greentexts/whatever the kids are doing these days? (for that matter, I just assume the modal HN'er is ~13 now, but maybe that's an artifact of how the front page dynamic goldfishes the conversation?) EDIT: little red book or little red pill? https://dakotavadams.substack.com/p/redpill-op https://dakotavadams.substack.com/p/redpill-op > I'd seen posters from the now fairly infamous 4chan /pol/, or Politics, board raiding other parts of the website in character as minorities or leftists before. How about centres troll the extremes, as in https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GgTm194WIAEqak3?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GgTm194WIAEqak3?format=jpg&name=... ? (the Adams quote implies, whether the horseshoe be real or artificial, you'd largely be trolling the same people anyway?)
        gsf_emergency_6 9mo ago
        Jack (and Leopold) seem centrist to me Are they real people?
        gsf_emergency_6 9mo ago
        Lyingflat was a red herring then? Seems like the idea that your (our?) concept of bigotry could be profoundly misguided could be the real unspeakable.. Have you read Lawrence of Arabia recently? The dividing line maybe: I see --(well, viscerally) whom you may label-- bigots as adults (who may or may not require medical intervention); and you-- as children? To help you out on the trolling, I'm usually triggered by upper-middle class takes on Christ, like this guy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46733577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46733577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46541901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46541901 :) That is not even schizo.. (aha, PH's concept of "kidult" "resonates" strongly with me) Meyer-Hofstede again..? Add Tocqueville, even though he couldn't travel to all the allies. This is I make effort to speak nicely to alephnerd, am glad the mods(?) unflagged me!! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46733802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46733802 (I'm also excited by Carneyism btw)