4 ms·

reply to multiple comments : mjdv : > it wasn't clear to me that just opening and trusting a directory andy_ppp : >obviously I wasn’t explicit enough in expl

by jasode 9mo ago

reply to multiple comments : mjdv : > it wasn't clear to me that just opening and trusting a directory andy_ppp : >obviously I wasn’t explicit enough in explaining I’m talking about code execution simply by opening a directory. Understandably, there's a disconnect in the mental model of what "opening a folder" can mean in VSCode. In 99% of other software, folders and directories are purely navigation and/or organization and then you must go the extra step of clicking on a particular file (e.g. ".exe", ".py", ".sh") to do something dangerous. Furthermore, in classic Visual Studio, solutions+projects are files such as ".sln" and ".vcsproj" or a "CMakeLists.txt" file. In contrast, VSCode projects can be the folders. Folders are not just purely navigation. So "VSCode opening a folder" can act like "MS Excel opening a .xlsm file" that might have a (dangerous) macro in it. Inside the VSCode folder may have a "tasks.json" with dangerous commands in it. Once the mental model groks the idea that a "folder" can have a special semantic meaning of "project+tasks" in VSCode, the warning messages saying "Do you trust this folder?" make more sense. VSCode uses "folders" instead of a top-level "file" as a semantic unit because it's more flexible for multiple languages. To re-emphasize, Windows File Explorer or macOS Finder "opening a folder" do not run "tasks.json" so it is not the same behavior as VSCode opening a folder.

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
EGreg 9mo ago
Oh man! Microsoft was the #1 company with this problem for over 25 years and they still do it? Word and Excel “MACROS” used to be THE main vector for kiddie viruses. Come on M$ … billions of dollars and you’re still loading up non-interactive code execution in all your documents that people expect to be POD (Plain Old Data)? https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/protect-yourself-from-macro-viruses-a3f3576a-bfef-4d25-84dc-70d18bde5903 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/protect-yourself-... Is it so much to ask for your software to AT LEAST warn peole when it’s about to take a destructive action, and keep asking until the user allows that class of thing non-interactivlely ONLY FOR THAT SIGNED SOFTWARE? Apple does other software things really badly with their millions of dollars, but they get Privacy RIGHT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPogdNafgic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPogdNafgic
- WorldMaker 9mo ago
  VS Code does exactly that, warns before loading this non-interactive code. It warns you loudly, with an ugly modal dialog, on opening a new to it folder and suggests Restricted Mode. A lot of the arguments here relate to: 1) This loud warning is easy to ignore, despite how loud it is 2) This loud warning is easy to disable, which many desire to do because it is very loud 3) This loud warning is easy to build bad habits (instead of marking safe parent folders, continually clicking Allow and training yourself to only click Allow) 4) Restricted Mode sounds "too restricted" to be useful (though it isn't too restrictive and is very useful) 5) Restricted Mode is also loud to remind you that you are in it, so many users think it is too loud and never want to be in it (despite it being very useful)
  - EGreg 9mo ago
    No, not loading code. Executing dangerous actions. There is a huge difference. Watch the video I had linked to!
    - WorldMaker 9mo ago
      Maybe I'm confused at what you mean, but I don't think there's a huge difference. Loading code is a dangerous action. VS Code is doing exactly what the video is talking about: it gives you a big popup window before doing a dangerous action (that could violate your privacy, that could be malware, that could do things you don't expect). We want to load code in Turing complete languages. We want complex build tools and test harnesses to load "just so", and those too are generally Turing complete and configured and written in Turing complete languages. Parsing code in a Turing complete language takes another Turing complete language, generally. (Most languages are self-hosted so parsing the code is an action in that same language.) One of the most dangerous actions we know of is an ancient and inescapable "bug" in all Turing complete work: the Halting Problem. We cannot mathematically prove any program will complete nor when it will complete, without running it and waiting for it to complete, if it completes. Infinite loops are both the power granted to us by our tools and the potential downfall of them all, our responsibility to deal with them is in our hands and math can't help us enough. Loading code is a dangerous action. VS Code is doing the right thing in how it is handling it. It's not the best user experience and clearly not enough users understand the dangers inherent in "do you really want to run all your extensions in this folder?" in precisely the same way that people better understand "Do you want this application to have access to your precise location?" is a threat (that apps do take advantage; in both cases).

by jasode 9mo ago

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

EGreg 9mo ago

Oh man! Microsoft was the #1 company with this problem for over 25 years and they still do it? Word and Excel “MACROS” used to be THE main vector for kiddie viruses. Come on M$ … billions of dollars and you’re still loading up non-interactive code execution in all your documents that people expect to be POD (Plain Old Data)? https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/protect-yourself-from-macro-viruses-a3f3576a-bfef-4d25-84dc-70d18bde5903 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/protect-yourself-... Is it so much to ask for your software to AT LEAST warn peole when it’s about to take a destructive action, and keep asking until the user allows that class of thing non-interactivlely ONLY FOR THAT SIGNED SOFTWARE? Apple does other software things really badly with their millions of dollars, but they get Privacy RIGHT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPogdNafgic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPogdNafgic

WorldMaker 9mo ago
VS Code does exactly that, warns before loading this non-interactive code. It warns you loudly, with an ugly modal dialog, on opening a new to it folder and suggests Restricted Mode. A lot of the arguments here relate to: 1) This loud warning is easy to ignore, despite how loud it is 2) This loud warning is easy to disable, which many desire to do because it is very loud 3) This loud warning is easy to build bad habits (instead of marking safe parent folders, continually clicking Allow and training yourself to only click Allow) 4) Restricted Mode sounds "too restricted" to be useful (though it isn't too restrictive and is very useful) 5) Restricted Mode is also loud to remind you that you are in it, so many users think it is too loud and never want to be in it (despite it being very useful)
- EGreg 9mo ago
  No, not loading code. Executing dangerous actions. There is a huge difference. Watch the video I had linked to!
  - WorldMaker 9mo ago
    Maybe I'm confused at what you mean, but I don't think there's a huge difference. Loading code is a dangerous action. VS Code is doing exactly what the video is talking about: it gives you a big popup window before doing a dangerous action (that could violate your privacy, that could be malware, that could do things you don't expect). We want to load code in Turing complete languages. We want complex build tools and test harnesses to load "just so", and those too are generally Turing complete and configured and written in Turing complete languages. Parsing code in a Turing complete language takes another Turing complete language, generally. (Most languages are self-hosted so parsing the code is an action in that same language.) One of the most dangerous actions we know of is an ancient and inescapable "bug" in all Turing complete work: the Halting Problem. We cannot mathematically prove any program will complete nor when it will complete, without running it and waiting for it to complete, if it completes. Infinite loops are both the power granted to us by our tools and the potential downfall of them all, our responsibility to deal with them is in our hands and math can't help us enough. Loading code is a dangerous action. VS Code is doing the right thing in how it is handling it. It's not the best user experience and clearly not enough users understand the dangers inherent in "do you really want to run all your extensions in this folder?" in precisely the same way that people better understand "Do you want this application to have access to your precise location?" is a threat (that apps do take advantage; in both cases).