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Then you haven’t lived under a dictatorship. It might not be a sledgehammer, but breaking voter secrecy and pressuring people to vote the “right” way is very mu

by pdpi 9mo ago

Then you haven’t lived under a dictatorship. It might not be a sledgehammer, but breaking voter secrecy and pressuring people to vote the “right” way is very much a thing.

EGreg 9mo ago
Can you actually back this up? I have seen this argument before thrown around like dogma, even though I have NEVER seen it in the modern world. The closest I can think of is rare cases like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushel%27s_Case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushel%27s_Case
- shushpanchik 9mo ago
  There are lots of reported cases in Russia, when your manager requires you to take photo of your paper ballot and show it to them, otherwise you have problems. You can try to google-translate [this, for example](https://holod.media/2024/03/08/soprotivlenie-putinu/#h-3-%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8F-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D1%8F%D1%8E%D1%82-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C-%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D1%8E-%D1%81-%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D1%81-%D0%B1%D1%8E%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BC-%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9-%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9 https://holod.media/2024/03/08/soprotivlenie-putinu/#h-3-%D0...)
  - EGreg 9mo ago
    Reported as in an advice article that claims it’s happening? This same article gives advice for what to do if it happens with paper ballots in real life! So clearly, paper ballots aren’t a panacea. And there is a far larger problem with paper ballots: you cannot check whether your vote was even counted correctly. With properly designed crypto electronic voting systems using eg Merkle trees that doesn’t happen. There are ways to make sure your vote was correctly counted while at the same time not being to prove to anyone how you voted.
notpushkin 9mo ago
This. In Russia, employees of all sorts of organisations are “encouraged” to vote for a particular candidate or party (not always the ruling party, though it doesn’t really matter for different reasons I won’t get into). As far as I know, these votes have gone mostly unchecked before electronic voting, but after that, they’ve started voting straight from the workplace computers. There were, of course, a lot of straight-up falsifications as well. That said, our pen-on-paper voting isn’t too legit either :’)
somenameforme 9mo ago
In the sort of scenario you're talking about the dictator doesn't care how people vote. 'The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.' If he has such a lack of control that a mere election, which is to be counted fairly, could have him leave power, then it'd be somewhat farcical to declare him a dictator with all the connotations such a term implies.
- anabab 9mo ago
  Yes but no. The looks are also important. They want 80-99% to stroke their ego and nice pictures to claim legitimacy. The latter seemingly being useful both internally and externally.
  - golem14 9mo ago
    Clearly, you haven’t lived behind the iron curtain. Checking up on what people do, and how they vote, would factor in promotions, school access for kids etc. this is by no means hypothetical. I encourage everyone to look up the relevant sources, easy to find.
joe_mamba 9mo ago
You don't need a dictatorship to nudge people to vote the "right" way, just incentives for the masses: Vote for me and I'll increase your pensions, the other guy wants to decrease your pensions. Vote for me and I'll increase wages of gov workers and civil servants, the other guy wants to fire gov workers. VOte for me and I'll increase your welfare and give you free* housing. etc... etc. The gov has masses of people that depend on the gov's generosity that they can leverage with a carrot on a stick to swing the majority in their favor. You don't need to put a gun to their head. The gun to their head is the threat of losing those government provided perks. That's how elections are won in Europe, just promise the boomers(largest voter base) higher pensions. That's why nobody who campaigns on reforming the pension system will ever win an election.
- gus_massa 9mo ago
  At some level, incentives, masses bribes and political polices are interchangeable. A few almost real examples from Argentina: Party A) Keep the 80% discount in the electricity and gas bills Party B) Reduce inflation from 200% y.o.y. to 50% y.o.y. Party C) [I don't remember] Party D) "A normal country" --- PS: D was a slogan, they got less than 5% of the votes.

by pdpi 9mo ago

Then you haven’t lived under a dictatorship. It might not be a sledgehammer, but breaking voter secrecy and pressuring people to vote the “right” way is very much a thing.

EGreg 9mo ago

Can you actually back this up? I have seen this argument before thrown around like dogma, even though I have NEVER seen it in the modern world. The closest I can think of is rare cases like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushel%27s_Case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushel%27s_Case

shushpanchik 9mo ago
There are lots of reported cases in Russia, when your manager requires you to take photo of your paper ballot and show it to them, otherwise you have problems. You can try to google-translate [this, for example](https://holod.media/2024/03/08/soprotivlenie-putinu/#h-3-%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8F-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D1%8F%D1%8E%D1%82-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C-%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D1%8E-%D1%81-%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D1%81-%D0%B1%D1%8E%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BC-%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9-%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9 https://holod.media/2024/03/08/soprotivlenie-putinu/#h-3-%D0...)
- EGreg 9mo ago
  Reported as in an advice article that claims it’s happening? This same article gives advice for what to do if it happens with paper ballots in real life! So clearly, paper ballots aren’t a panacea. And there is a far larger problem with paper ballots: you cannot check whether your vote was even counted correctly. With properly designed crypto electronic voting systems using eg Merkle trees that doesn’t happen. There are ways to make sure your vote was correctly counted while at the same time not being to prove to anyone how you voted.

notpushkin 9mo ago

This. In Russia, employees of all sorts of organisations are “encouraged” to vote for a particular candidate or party (not always the ruling party, though it doesn’t really matter for different reasons I won’t get into). As far as I know, these votes have gone mostly unchecked before electronic voting, but after that, they’ve started voting straight from the workplace computers. There were, of course, a lot of straight-up falsifications as well. That said, our pen-on-paper voting isn’t too legit either :’)

somenameforme 9mo ago

In the sort of scenario you're talking about the dictator doesn't care how people vote. 'The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.' If he has such a lack of control that a mere election, which is to be counted fairly, could have him leave power, then it'd be somewhat farcical to declare him a dictator with all the connotations such a term implies.

anabab 9mo ago
Yes but no. The looks are also important. They want 80-99% to stroke their ego and nice pictures to claim legitimacy. The latter seemingly being useful both internally and externally.
- golem14 9mo ago
  Clearly, you haven’t lived behind the iron curtain. Checking up on what people do, and how they vote, would factor in promotions, school access for kids etc. this is by no means hypothetical. I encourage everyone to look up the relevant sources, easy to find.

joe_mamba 9mo ago

You don't need a dictatorship to nudge people to vote the "right" way, just incentives for the masses: Vote for me and I'll increase your pensions, the other guy wants to decrease your pensions. Vote for me and I'll increase wages of gov workers and civil servants, the other guy wants to fire gov workers. VOte for me and I'll increase your welfare and give you free* housing. etc... etc. The gov has masses of people that depend on the gov's generosity that they can leverage with a carrot on a stick to swing the majority in their favor. You don't need to put a gun to their head. The gun to their head is the threat of losing those government provided perks. That's how elections are won in Europe, just promise the boomers(largest voter base) higher pensions. That's why nobody who campaigns on reforming the pension system will ever win an election.

gus_massa 9mo ago
At some level, incentives, masses bribes and political polices are interchangeable. A few almost real examples from Argentina: Party A) Keep the 80% discount in the electricity and gas bills Party B) Reduce inflation from 200% y.o.y. to 50% y.o.y. Party C) [I don't remember] Party D) "A normal country" --- PS: D was a slogan, they got less than 5% of the votes.