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I work in health (neurotech/sleeptech) and am in the process of writing a post which hits on the health aspect. The things that most people ignore when thinkin

I work in health (neurotech/sleeptech) and am in the process of writing a post which hits on the health aspect. The things that most people ignore when thinking about AI and health is that 2/3rds of Americans are suffer from chronic illness and there is a shortage of doctors. Could AI really do much worse than the status quo? Doctors won't be replaced, but if we could move them up the stack of health to actually doing the work of saving lives rather than just looking at rising cholesterol numbers and writing scripts?

JohnFen 9mo ago
There's a trust problem for that use case, though. I don't have a primary care physician because in the area I live in, there are no doctors that I can find that are taking new patients. Regardless, I wouldn't want any of my medical data exposed to an AI system even if that was the only way to get health care. I simply don't trust them enough for that (and HIPAA isn't strong enough to make me more comfortable).
- nephihaha 9mo ago
  The human element has already been lost in medicine in many cases, unless you are willing to pay a lot for it. Many people need that when they are sick. They want genuine support and something resembling sympathy. My friend died last weekend from cancer. Human support/contact was very important to her. AI can't do that.
  - JohnFen 9mo ago
    True. But a whole lot of that loss of the human element isn't about AI one way or another. It's about doctors being ridiculously overworked.
    - Zigurd 9mo ago
      I don't know if this is a common experience, but the first time I really needed a doctor, they spent the whole time typing on a laptop. Since that didn't result in any follow up questions or anything beyond a referral to a specialist, I suspect it was all about getting paid by the insurance company. There's a blindingly obvious fix to that part of overworked doctors.
      - ceejayoz 9mo ago
        Some of it is justifying for insurance. But some of it is so there’s a record to refer to later when you come back. (Doctors will, for example, still tend to type plenty during an appointment in, say, the English NHS.)
      - onemoresoop 9mo ago
        OK, AI could be used transparently to fill out forms and write down what the doctor talks to into a microphone, assist in the health staff with some tasks in the form of interchangeable tools. What we don't need is another layer of blackbox magic making everything even more murky.
      - JohnFen 9mo ago
        I know a couple of doctors and they both told me the same thing (this is likely dependent on exactly where you are): the amount of time they can spend with any given patient is less than 15 minutes. In practice, they have to "rob peter to pay paul" and try to minimize the amount of time they spend with patients who have lesser medical needs so they can spend more time with patients who have more complicated situations.
    - nephihaha 9mo ago
      "But a whole lot of that loss of the human element isn't about AI one way or another. It's about doctors being ridiculously overworked." My suspicion just now is that while there is a long term pattern of neglect and overwork, we are being nudged towards AI medicine in order to avoid paying out wages. (I think a similar thing will happen in law enforcement, where facial recognition networks and machines will be used in future in place of human police in many cases.)
- pedalpete 9mo ago
  This is common where I live also (Sydney, Australia). However, I'm not suggesting the existing AI systems. There are health specific platforms such as Superpower, or in Australia Everlab, which are doing the blood-work, early detection type stuff. Then if there is something to address that gets handed off to a doctor.
nhinck2 9mo ago
Yes because the act of "moving them up the stack" could have the opportunity cost of preventing real change that would actually improve health outcomes. AI could allow the whole system to kick the can down the road.
- Zigurd 9mo ago
  It's almost never a good idea to go for a technology fix when there are other obvious defects that could be addressed.
ceejayoz 9mo ago
> Could AI really do much worse than the status quo? Yes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism
- Quarrelsome 9mo ago
  It's encouraged me towards getting diagnosed for my probable ADHD. Now I'm mentioning this to people I know and they're all giving me: > you're undiagnosed? I thought it was obvious. guess I was the last to clock it. It was people that made me think of it first: a hookup that was adament I had it and then a therapist that mentioned in our first session. I started the diagnosis like over a year ago and completely forgot about it. Its only been asking gipity about some symptoms I have and seeing it throw up ADHD a lot as a possibility, that encouraged me to go back to sorting out the diagnosis.
  - galleywest200 9mo ago
    Prodding you to seek help from a doctor is different than what the OP was saying > Doctors won't be replaced, but if we could move them up the stack of health to actually doing the work of saving lives rather than just looking at rising cholesterol numbers and writing scripts I presume your AI assistant did not prescribe medication to you.
    - Quarrelsome 9mo ago
      sure but this is part of preventative care. I'm one of those people who are happier to shrug off symptoms than go through the effort of seeking medical diagnosis and I doubt I'm alone in this.
  - ceejayoz 9mo ago
    I don’t doubt it can be helpful. We don’t have enough info to determine whether such anecdotes translate to widespread benefit or surprising consequences.
    - 9mo ago
toomuchtodo 9mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_linked_to_chatbots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_linked_to_chatbots We should fix the shortage of healthcare practitioners, not hand folks a fancy search engine and say "problem solved." Would you put forth "Google your symptoms" as a solution to this same problem? The token output is fancy, the confidence in accuracy is similar.

JohnFen 9mo ago

There's a trust problem for that use case, though. I don't have a primary care physician because in the area I live in, there are no doctors that I can find that are taking new patients. Regardless, I wouldn't want any of my medical data exposed to an AI system even if that was the only way to get health care. I simply don't trust them enough for that (and HIPAA isn't strong enough to make me more comfortable).

nephihaha 9mo ago
The human element has already been lost in medicine in many cases, unless you are willing to pay a lot for it. Many people need that when they are sick. They want genuine support and something resembling sympathy. My friend died last weekend from cancer. Human support/contact was very important to her. AI can't do that.
- JohnFen 9mo ago
  True. But a whole lot of that loss of the human element isn't about AI one way or another. It's about doctors being ridiculously overworked.
  - Zigurd 9mo ago
    I don't know if this is a common experience, but the first time I really needed a doctor, they spent the whole time typing on a laptop. Since that didn't result in any follow up questions or anything beyond a referral to a specialist, I suspect it was all about getting paid by the insurance company. There's a blindingly obvious fix to that part of overworked doctors.
    - ceejayoz 9mo ago
      Some of it is justifying for insurance. But some of it is so there’s a record to refer to later when you come back. (Doctors will, for example, still tend to type plenty during an appointment in, say, the English NHS.)
    - onemoresoop 9mo ago
      OK, AI could be used transparently to fill out forms and write down what the doctor talks to into a microphone, assist in the health staff with some tasks in the form of interchangeable tools. What we don't need is another layer of blackbox magic making everything even more murky.
    - JohnFen 9mo ago
      I know a couple of doctors and they both told me the same thing (this is likely dependent on exactly where you are): the amount of time they can spend with any given patient is less than 15 minutes. In practice, they have to "rob peter to pay paul" and try to minimize the amount of time they spend with patients who have lesser medical needs so they can spend more time with patients who have more complicated situations.
  - nephihaha 9mo ago
    "But a whole lot of that loss of the human element isn't about AI one way or another. It's about doctors being ridiculously overworked." My suspicion just now is that while there is a long term pattern of neglect and overwork, we are being nudged towards AI medicine in order to avoid paying out wages. (I think a similar thing will happen in law enforcement, where facial recognition networks and machines will be used in future in place of human police in many cases.)
pedalpete 9mo ago
This is common where I live also (Sydney, Australia). However, I'm not suggesting the existing AI systems. There are health specific platforms such as Superpower, or in Australia Everlab, which are doing the blood-work, early detection type stuff. Then if there is something to address that gets handed off to a doctor.

nhinck2 9mo ago

Yes because the act of "moving them up the stack" could have the opportunity cost of preventing real change that would actually improve health outcomes. AI could allow the whole system to kick the can down the road.

Zigurd 9mo ago
It's almost never a good idea to go for a technology fix when there are other obvious defects that could be addressed.

ceejayoz 9mo ago

> Could AI really do much worse than the status quo? Yes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism

Quarrelsome 9mo ago
It's encouraged me towards getting diagnosed for my probable ADHD. Now I'm mentioning this to people I know and they're all giving me: > you're undiagnosed? I thought it was obvious. guess I was the last to clock it. It was people that made me think of it first: a hookup that was adament I had it and then a therapist that mentioned in our first session. I started the diagnosis like over a year ago and completely forgot about it. Its only been asking gipity about some symptoms I have and seeing it throw up ADHD a lot as a possibility, that encouraged me to go back to sorting out the diagnosis.
- galleywest200 9mo ago
  Prodding you to seek help from a doctor is different than what the OP was saying > Doctors won't be replaced, but if we could move them up the stack of health to actually doing the work of saving lives rather than just looking at rising cholesterol numbers and writing scripts I presume your AI assistant did not prescribe medication to you.
  - Quarrelsome 9mo ago
    sure but this is part of preventative care. I'm one of those people who are happier to shrug off symptoms than go through the effort of seeking medical diagnosis and I doubt I'm alone in this.
- ceejayoz 9mo ago
  I don’t doubt it can be helpful. We don’t have enough info to determine whether such anecdotes translate to widespread benefit or surprising consequences.
  - 9mo ago

toomuchtodo 9mo ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_linked_to_chatbots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_linked_to_chatbots We should fix the shortage of healthcare practitioners, not hand folks a fancy search engine and say "problem solved." Would you put forth "Google your symptoms" as a solution to this same problem? The token output is fancy, the confidence in accuracy is similar.