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> is. Or why being "certified UNIX" is generally meaningless: see the BSDs, which are much closer to "UNIX" origins than macOS will ever be MacOS is BSD over M

by rayiner 10mo ago

> is. Or why being "certified UNIX" is generally meaningless: see the BSDs, which are much closer to "UNIX" origins than macOS will ever be MacOS is BSD over Mach, which is itself derived from BSD.

p_ing 10mo ago
Yes, that's the point. It's further removed from UNIX than the BSDs are. macOS contains BSD userland, networking, file system, POSIX, and a couple of other things. But XNU, the kernel, is "X is Not UNIX", if there ever was a statement to be made about the underpinnings of macOS. https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/Architecture/Architecture.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da...
- KerrAvon 10mo ago
  This is a very silly argument. There were several actual Unixes released based on Mach, and some of them more purely Mach than macOS/NeXT ever have been.
- sbuk 10mo ago
  The people that certify it say that you are wrong. What you think and what actually is are two entirely different things in this case. The fact remains that, according to the OpenGroup (and they are the one that matter here), macOS 26 is UNIX.
  - p_ing 10mo ago
    macOS 26 that is /altered/ is UNIX. macOS that ships on every Mac is not certified UNIX -- but it can be made to match if you're willing to give up security. You should read through the actual certification - https://www.opengroup.org/csq/repository/noreferences=1&RID=apple%25252FSD1%25252F20.html https://www.opengroup.org/csq/repository/noreferences=1&RID=... (there are a couple more in the repo). To run the VSX conformance test suite we first disable SIP as follows: [...] Feel free to disable SIP on your Mac. I certainly won't be doing so on mine.
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]
    - sbuk 10mo ago
      You’re confusing operating mode with operating system. SIP/SSV don’t create a different macOS, they restrict mutation and introspection. They don’t change the POSIX surface, the SUS semantics, or the kernel interfaces being certified. They just stop test harnesses from instrumenting the system without elevated privilege. By your logic, no modern OS is anything it claims to be unless you run it in an insecure debug configuration. Linux isn’t POSIX because you need root. Windows isn’t Windows because kernel debugging exists. That’s obviously nonsense. The Open Group certifies macOS 26 as shipped. Temporarily relaxing protections to run a conformance suite does not produce a “different OS”, it produces a different trust configuration of the same one. Saying “it’s not really UNIX because SIP is on” is like saying a container isn’t Linux because it doesn’t let you mount /proc without extra privileges.
      - p_ing 10mo ago
        You didn't read the article, did you? SIP isn't the only alteration. And we don't know all of the changes required due to the waivers. > if you want your installation of macOS 15.0 to pass the UNIX® 03 certification test suites, you need to disable System Integrity Protection, enable the root account, enable core file generation, disable timeout coalescing, mount any APFS partitions with the strictatime option, format your APFS partitions case-sensitive (by default, APFS is case-insensitive, so you’ll need to reinstall), disable Spotlight, copy the binaries uucp, uuname, uustat, and uux from /usr/bin to /usr/local/bin and the binaries uucico and uuxqt from /usr/sbin to /usr/local/bin, set the setuid bit on all of these binaries, add /usr/local/bin to your PATH before /usr/bin and /usr/sbin, enable the uucp service, and handle the mystery issues listed in the four Temporary Waivers.
        icedchai 10mo ago
        The certification test suites are clearly a superset of what most "Unix" applications require. I haven't used UUCP since the 90's, have you? I ran a UUCP node for about 5 years. Fun times, but not exactly useful today.
- inkyoto 10mo ago
  You have just described OSF/1 (and later – Tru64) – a certified UNIX with a hybrid kernel operating over a Mach microkernel, BSD userland, POSIX conformance etc. What is the point that you are making?

by rayiner 10mo ago

> is. Or why being "certified UNIX" is generally meaningless: see the BSDs, which are much closer to "UNIX" origins than macOS will ever be MacOS is BSD over Mach, which is itself derived from BSD.

p_ing 10mo ago

Yes, that's the point. It's further removed from UNIX than the BSDs are. macOS contains BSD userland, networking, file system, POSIX, and a couple of other things. But XNU, the kernel, is "X is Not UNIX", if there ever was a statement to be made about the underpinnings of macOS. https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/Architecture/Architecture.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da...

KerrAvon 10mo ago
This is a very silly argument. There were several actual Unixes released based on Mach, and some of them more purely Mach than macOS/NeXT ever have been.
sbuk 10mo ago
The people that certify it say that you are wrong. What you think and what actually is are two entirely different things in this case. The fact remains that, according to the OpenGroup (and they are the one that matter here), macOS 26 is UNIX.
- p_ing 10mo ago
  macOS 26 that is /altered/ is UNIX. macOS that ships on every Mac is not certified UNIX -- but it can be made to match if you're willing to give up security. You should read through the actual certification - https://www.opengroup.org/csq/repository/noreferences=1&RID=apple%25252FSD1%25252F20.html https://www.opengroup.org/csq/repository/noreferences=1&RID=... (there are a couple more in the repo). To run the VSX conformance test suite we first disable SIP as follows: [...] Feel free to disable SIP on your Mac. I certainly won't be doing so on mine.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
  - sbuk 10mo ago
    You’re confusing operating mode with operating system. SIP/SSV don’t create a different macOS, they restrict mutation and introspection. They don’t change the POSIX surface, the SUS semantics, or the kernel interfaces being certified. They just stop test harnesses from instrumenting the system without elevated privilege. By your logic, no modern OS is anything it claims to be unless you run it in an insecure debug configuration. Linux isn’t POSIX because you need root. Windows isn’t Windows because kernel debugging exists. That’s obviously nonsense. The Open Group certifies macOS 26 as shipped. Temporarily relaxing protections to run a conformance suite does not produce a “different OS”, it produces a different trust configuration of the same one. Saying “it’s not really UNIX because SIP is on” is like saying a container isn’t Linux because it doesn’t let you mount /proc without extra privileges.
    - p_ing 10mo ago
      You didn't read the article, did you? SIP isn't the only alteration. And we don't know all of the changes required due to the waivers. > if you want your installation of macOS 15.0 to pass the UNIX® 03 certification test suites, you need to disable System Integrity Protection, enable the root account, enable core file generation, disable timeout coalescing, mount any APFS partitions with the strictatime option, format your APFS partitions case-sensitive (by default, APFS is case-insensitive, so you’ll need to reinstall), disable Spotlight, copy the binaries uucp, uuname, uustat, and uux from /usr/bin to /usr/local/bin and the binaries uucico and uuxqt from /usr/sbin to /usr/local/bin, set the setuid bit on all of these binaries, add /usr/local/bin to your PATH before /usr/bin and /usr/sbin, enable the uucp service, and handle the mystery issues listed in the four Temporary Waivers.
      - icedchai 10mo ago
        The certification test suites are clearly a superset of what most "Unix" applications require. I haven't used UUCP since the 90's, have you? I ran a UUCP node for about 5 years. Fun times, but not exactly useful today.
inkyoto 10mo ago
You have just described OSF/1 (and later – Tru64) – a certified UNIX with a hybrid kernel operating over a Mach microkernel, BSD userland, POSIX conformance etc. What is the point that you are making?