3 ms·

It's one of the idiotic "our tax money is spent for bicycle lanes in foreign countries" mindsets many right wingers share in Germany.

miroljub 9mo ago
Just because you accusse people to be "right wingers" because they don't want to fund bicycle lanes in foreign countries doesn't make them wrong. If you want to fund bicycle lanes in foreign countries, go start a fund an fund them privately. For the people that don't know the topic: - yes, German taxpayers are indeed funding bicycle lanes in foreign countries - it's not the only waste of money going to foreign countries And additional questions: - since when is it forbidden to complain against the waste of tax money? - how does favouring tax cuts instead of tax money waste makes you a "right wing"?
- sevenzero 9mo ago
  What people like you dont understand is what we get back from investing into foreign countries. We dont just build bicycle lanes there because we are such nice people.
  - miroljub 9mo ago
    Can you please explain (ELI style) the great benefits German taxpayers have from the bicycle lanes in Peru?
- lifty 9mo ago
  I agree with your characterisation of what is going on, and at some point, the EU states will have to decide for full fiscal integration or for removing the common currency. You can't have a common currency without a common fiscal union. So we either have to integrate more or desintegrate more, this inbetween we have now is not working very well. Speaking as a European, not sure what is better.
  - miroljub 9mo ago
    Not related to the comment, but in general I agree with you. You can't have a single monetary system without complete unification, including tax systems, budgeting systems, governance models, retirement systems, benefits. I mean, you can, like we have now, but it's not sustainable, and eventually we all have it worse. As a European, I would not want to go that way, since I'm afraid such a unified EU will be a bureaucratic monster that is even more centralized than the USA, and way more autocratic than any current EU state. I'd rather take a step back, dissolve much of the EU's competences, and go back to pure trade union, dissolve the EURO as a currency, and let every member state take sovereign decisions on their own.
    - TeMPOraL 9mo ago
      I recently became much more pro-total-unification, so let me give you this counterpoint: individually, European nations are no match to the major superpowers, neither economically nor militarily. We'll get gutted by divide-and-conquer approach. In contrast, bound much closer together (particularly with some form of pan-european armed forces), the EU would become a proper global superpower and a counterbalance for the USA and China.
      - sevenzero 9mo ago
        You cant really believe any of the EU countries actually want to work together? The EU was only possible with the premise of countries keeping their autonomy. Believe me when I say that us Germans would rather go to war than merge with France, just as an example.
      - miroljub 9mo ago
        There is not a single example of a multiethnic or culturally diverse empire or state that was successful after the rise of nation-states at the end of the 19th century. All of them crumbled either peacefully or in bloody wars. Why do you think such a bureaucratic monster that no one really wants would be an exception? Maybe we can try it again in the 24th century, when the humans evolve enough, but for now, your best bet for a successful country is either an ethnonational or religion-national state.
- harperlee 9mo ago
  Funding other member states to be able to grow may be labeled waste, or investment on creating new markets for Germany.
  - miroljub 9mo ago
    That's the same fallacy as claiming that rich people save money by donating to charity. Simple example: - Germany gives 100 € to other EU states - Those states 100 € to buy made in Germany goods - German companies have 10 € profits from those sales - German state collects 5 € from those profits In summary, German taxpayers paid 100 € so the state can collect 5 € taxes, and companies another 5 €. Not a very good deal. And this calculation is crazy optimistic, because it assumes that all money that Germany gives to other countries will be used to purchase German good. In reality, they will be spent willy-nilly and German companies may not see even 1 € in return.
    - harperlee 9mo ago
      It seems that in your worldview value and wealth does not increase, just changes hands.
    - ivan_gammel 9mo ago
      This calculation is flawed. German state collects much more than 5€, because there is VAT etc and, of course, employees of that company pay income tax from their share of that 100€ they just got back.
- tchalla 9mo ago
  >> For the people that don't know the topic: >> - yes, German taxpayers are indeed funding bicycle lanes in foreign countries Just for people to know this, we are talking about 44Mn€ (20Mn€ + 24Mn€) of money in Peru as the commentator mentions below. It is wasteful but it has practically no effect on Germany. There are 1000x things that Germany does within Germany that moves the needle more than the talking about this rounding error. But that requires introspection and ownership of responsibility - both alien to the country’s normal compliance attitude of working.
Wokemon 9mo ago
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miroljub 9mo ago

Just because you accusse people to be "right wingers" because they don't want to fund bicycle lanes in foreign countries doesn't make them wrong. If you want to fund bicycle lanes in foreign countries, go start a fund an fund them privately. For the people that don't know the topic: - yes, German taxpayers are indeed funding bicycle lanes in foreign countries - it's not the only waste of money going to foreign countries And additional questions: - since when is it forbidden to complain against the waste of tax money? - how does favouring tax cuts instead of tax money waste makes you a "right wing"?

sevenzero 9mo ago
What people like you dont understand is what we get back from investing into foreign countries. We dont just build bicycle lanes there because we are such nice people.
- miroljub 9mo ago
  Can you please explain (ELI style) the great benefits German taxpayers have from the bicycle lanes in Peru?
lifty 9mo ago
I agree with your characterisation of what is going on, and at some point, the EU states will have to decide for full fiscal integration or for removing the common currency. You can't have a common currency without a common fiscal union. So we either have to integrate more or desintegrate more, this inbetween we have now is not working very well. Speaking as a European, not sure what is better.
- miroljub 9mo ago
  Not related to the comment, but in general I agree with you. You can't have a single monetary system without complete unification, including tax systems, budgeting systems, governance models, retirement systems, benefits. I mean, you can, like we have now, but it's not sustainable, and eventually we all have it worse. As a European, I would not want to go that way, since I'm afraid such a unified EU will be a bureaucratic monster that is even more centralized than the USA, and way more autocratic than any current EU state. I'd rather take a step back, dissolve much of the EU's competences, and go back to pure trade union, dissolve the EURO as a currency, and let every member state take sovereign decisions on their own.
  - TeMPOraL 9mo ago
    I recently became much more pro-total-unification, so let me give you this counterpoint: individually, European nations are no match to the major superpowers, neither economically nor militarily. We'll get gutted by divide-and-conquer approach. In contrast, bound much closer together (particularly with some form of pan-european armed forces), the EU would become a proper global superpower and a counterbalance for the USA and China.
    - sevenzero 9mo ago
      You cant really believe any of the EU countries actually want to work together? The EU was only possible with the premise of countries keeping their autonomy. Believe me when I say that us Germans would rather go to war than merge with France, just as an example.
    - miroljub 9mo ago
      There is not a single example of a multiethnic or culturally diverse empire or state that was successful after the rise of nation-states at the end of the 19th century. All of them crumbled either peacefully or in bloody wars. Why do you think such a bureaucratic monster that no one really wants would be an exception? Maybe we can try it again in the 24th century, when the humans evolve enough, but for now, your best bet for a successful country is either an ethnonational or religion-national state.
harperlee 9mo ago
Funding other member states to be able to grow may be labeled waste, or investment on creating new markets for Germany.
- miroljub 9mo ago
  That's the same fallacy as claiming that rich people save money by donating to charity. Simple example: - Germany gives 100 € to other EU states - Those states 100 € to buy made in Germany goods - German companies have 10 € profits from those sales - German state collects 5 € from those profits In summary, German taxpayers paid 100 € so the state can collect 5 € taxes, and companies another 5 €. Not a very good deal. And this calculation is crazy optimistic, because it assumes that all money that Germany gives to other countries will be used to purchase German good. In reality, they will be spent willy-nilly and German companies may not see even 1 € in return.
  - harperlee 9mo ago
    It seems that in your worldview value and wealth does not increase, just changes hands.
  - ivan_gammel 9mo ago
    This calculation is flawed. German state collects much more than 5€, because there is VAT etc and, of course, employees of that company pay income tax from their share of that 100€ they just got back.
tchalla 9mo ago
>> For the people that don't know the topic: >> - yes, German taxpayers are indeed funding bicycle lanes in foreign countries Just for people to know this, we are talking about 44Mn€ (20Mn€ + 24Mn€) of money in Peru as the commentator mentions below. It is wasteful but it has practically no effect on Germany. There are 1000x things that Germany does within Germany that moves the needle more than the talking about this rounding error. But that requires introspection and ownership of responsibility - both alien to the country’s normal compliance attitude of working.

Wokemon 9mo ago

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