4 ms·

It's quite silly how people talk about the "left" in the US. There's barely any left present in politics. Much less "far/extreme left" or anything close to that

It's quite silly how people talk about the "left" in the US. There's barely any left present in politics. Much less "far/extreme left" or anything close to that. Nobody is really fighting for UBI, nationalisation of large utility-like corps, redoing healthcare completely, wealth taxes, dismantling the two-party system. And these ate still fairly chill ideas that recently happened in other countries, far from "extreme".

bluGill 9mo ago
Your position is they are not extreem. Mine is that what we call left is already too extreem. However what the 'right' wants is different but mostly not in the direction I want to go.
- DangitBobby 9mo ago
  A minority of people in the developed world would agree with your assessment that the American left is "extreme". It's mostly American "centrists" and conservatives that think so.
  - bluGill 9mo ago
    Again though, the original point is that left/right assumes there are extremes. All you have said is that in the rest of the world the "left" is more extreme. If that extreme is good or not is a mostly a value judgement - there is no right or wrong answer. There are consequences to what answer you pick though.
    - DangitBobby 9mo ago
      The thing about extremes is you can make anything so by choosing a reference point. My reference is from the centerpoint of most prosperous and educated countries, because those are most likely to be ones with good ideas to be emulated. All decision we make are based on value judgements. Obviously there's no way to know what the most sensible thing is but in absence of perfect heuristics, "what other successful countries think" seems like a good one.
    - layla5alive 9mo ago
      I know you said there are consequences to which one you pick, so we partially agree. But "There is no right or wrong answer" implies all value judgements are purely subjective, that all values are purely subjective. But I think we agree this couldn't be farther from the truth - these values _govern society_ - they affect everyone around us. Choosing bad values is genuinely harmful. Having the value that slavery is okay isn't just subjective, it's harmful and evil. Maybe if you believe slavery is okay, then you might disagree, but it doesn't make you any less objectively wrong. We could get into a big long thing about how this becomes objective, but suffice to say, if people do not want to be owned, and see being owned as harmful to them... then... they are being harmed.
  - loeg 9mo ago
    It really doesn't matter what non-Americans think in this context; only Americans get to vote in American elections. (And additionally, I think you're essentially wrong that American politics is to the "right" of other developed countries in general.)
- Braxton1980 9mo ago
  What laws or presidential orders have the US Left done that shows how extreme they are?
  - loeg 9mo ago
    The US Left doesn't represent a broad enough population to win most national elections; certainly not enough to pass national law. They win local elections in places like SF or Seattle that were Harris +52 (e.g. contrast with Maduro's fake election only claiming a 9 point margin) and are over-represented in Dem party donors, which influences Dem representatives. Nevertheless, they express extreme positions. Like "people should be treated preferentially by race" or "private property should be abolished/confiscated" or "the police should be defunded" or "transwomen should be allowed to compete in women's sports categories" or "illegal immigrants should receive taxpayer-subsidized healthcare." These are like 70-30 or 80-20 issues at the national level, with Leftists on the wrong side. https://decidingtowin.org/ https://decidingtowin.org/
    - Braxton1980 9mo ago
      I asked for policies or laws they have implemented not whether they have expressed extreme views.
      - loeg 9mo ago
        Ok. I think I adequately answered that. They're a minority faction; they can't pass laws. I think you know this, and your comment suggesting a faction must pass laws in order to be extreme (bluGill's contention) was a deliberate sleight of hand.
        Braxton1980 9mo ago
        You can also use examples from when their was a Democrat president and Congress was controlled by them.
    - Braxton1980 9mo ago
Braxton1980 9mo ago
The Democrats made small progress on healthcare. Insurers couldn't deny coverage due to existing conditions Kids could stay on parents until 26 even if they aren't in school There were also subsidies for the lowest income people to help pay for open market plans. This is something right? This is a step in the right direction? If one party wants this and the other wants to dismantle then the first is left and the latter right.
- viraptor 9mo ago
  It's bare minimum. It's "not-right". You don't normally call someone leftist for just saying "people should have access to healthcare without going bankrupt".
  - Braxton1980 9mo ago
    If I said I was going to lose weight and started jogging would you criticize me for doing the bare minimum after my first day?
    - viraptor 9mo ago
      If you're still eating doughnuts on the way in this stretched metaphor, yeah, I'd say you're doing the bare minimum.
  - Braxton1980 9mo ago
    Your use of the bare minimum implies a one time action with no further potential changes. How do you know that was the case?
    - viraptor 9mo ago
      Because it was given up for a promise to talk about it later maybe.

bluGill 9mo ago

Your position is they are not extreem. Mine is that what we call left is already too extreem. However what the 'right' wants is different but mostly not in the direction I want to go.

DangitBobby 9mo ago
A minority of people in the developed world would agree with your assessment that the American left is "extreme". It's mostly American "centrists" and conservatives that think so.
- bluGill 9mo ago
  Again though, the original point is that left/right assumes there are extremes. All you have said is that in the rest of the world the "left" is more extreme. If that extreme is good or not is a mostly a value judgement - there is no right or wrong answer. There are consequences to what answer you pick though.
  - DangitBobby 9mo ago
    The thing about extremes is you can make anything so by choosing a reference point. My reference is from the centerpoint of most prosperous and educated countries, because those are most likely to be ones with good ideas to be emulated. All decision we make are based on value judgements. Obviously there's no way to know what the most sensible thing is but in absence of perfect heuristics, "what other successful countries think" seems like a good one.
  - layla5alive 9mo ago
    I know you said there are consequences to which one you pick, so we partially agree. But "There is no right or wrong answer" implies all value judgements are purely subjective, that all values are purely subjective. But I think we agree this couldn't be farther from the truth - these values _govern society_ - they affect everyone around us. Choosing bad values is genuinely harmful. Having the value that slavery is okay isn't just subjective, it's harmful and evil. Maybe if you believe slavery is okay, then you might disagree, but it doesn't make you any less objectively wrong. We could get into a big long thing about how this becomes objective, but suffice to say, if people do not want to be owned, and see being owned as harmful to them... then... they are being harmed.
- loeg 9mo ago
  It really doesn't matter what non-Americans think in this context; only Americans get to vote in American elections. (And additionally, I think you're essentially wrong that American politics is to the "right" of other developed countries in general.)
Braxton1980 9mo ago
What laws or presidential orders have the US Left done that shows how extreme they are?
- loeg 9mo ago
  The US Left doesn't represent a broad enough population to win most national elections; certainly not enough to pass national law. They win local elections in places like SF or Seattle that were Harris +52 (e.g. contrast with Maduro's fake election only claiming a 9 point margin) and are over-represented in Dem party donors, which influences Dem representatives. Nevertheless, they express extreme positions. Like "people should be treated preferentially by race" or "private property should be abolished/confiscated" or "the police should be defunded" or "transwomen should be allowed to compete in women's sports categories" or "illegal immigrants should receive taxpayer-subsidized healthcare." These are like 70-30 or 80-20 issues at the national level, with Leftists on the wrong side. https://decidingtowin.org/ https://decidingtowin.org/
  - Braxton1980 9mo ago
    I asked for policies or laws they have implemented not whether they have expressed extreme views.
    - loeg 9mo ago
      Ok. I think I adequately answered that. They're a minority faction; they can't pass laws. I think you know this, and your comment suggesting a faction must pass laws in order to be extreme (bluGill's contention) was a deliberate sleight of hand.
      - Braxton1980 9mo ago
        You can also use examples from when their was a Democrat president and Congress was controlled by them.
  - Braxton1980 9mo ago

Braxton1980 9mo ago

The Democrats made small progress on healthcare. Insurers couldn't deny coverage due to existing conditions Kids could stay on parents until 26 even if they aren't in school There were also subsidies for the lowest income people to help pay for open market plans. This is something right? This is a step in the right direction? If one party wants this and the other wants to dismantle then the first is left and the latter right.

viraptor 9mo ago
It's bare minimum. It's "not-right". You don't normally call someone leftist for just saying "people should have access to healthcare without going bankrupt".
- Braxton1980 9mo ago
  If I said I was going to lose weight and started jogging would you criticize me for doing the bare minimum after my first day?
  - viraptor 9mo ago
    If you're still eating doughnuts on the way in this stretched metaphor, yeah, I'd say you're doing the bare minimum.
- Braxton1980 9mo ago
  Your use of the bare minimum implies a one time action with no further potential changes. How do you know that was the case?
  - viraptor 9mo ago
    Because it was given up for a promise to talk about it later maybe.