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The workers in the article seem quite happy, unlike the fox conn workers who created (most probably) your smartphone.

gnosis 14y ago
Of course they seem to be quite happy. This entire article was basically an infomercial by the wine industry. Do you really expect them to post any photos of obviously miserable workers?
- jlgreco 14y ago
  You are right. These people would probably be much happier if robots took their jobs.
  - gnosis 14y ago
    And you'd probably be much happier sorting corks 16 hours a day, 365 days a year.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Do you honestly believe you are making a rational point here? There are plenty of reasons to replace workers with robots, but "making those workers happier" is not one of them... "Hey Martha, we've noticed that you don't seem to find your job to be very enjoyable. Well good news, we've fired you!" ....
      - gnosis 14y ago
        How about instead, "Martha, you no longer have to work at a mind-numbingly boring (and probably unhealthy if not demeaning) job -- we've got robots for that. Instead, we're training you to do more interesting and more fulfilling work. While we're at it, we're also giving you a voice in the decision making process and part ownership of the company. You, along with your fellow workers can now decide how to run the company for your own benefit and that of society at large."
        jlgreco 14y ago
        You are living in a fantasy world.
        gnosis 14y ago
        Not very long ago, it used to be inconceivable in America that blacks and whites would one day sit together at the same restaurant, drink from the same water fountain, use the same bathrooms, compete for the same jobs, go to the same schools, and even intermarry. Segragation was just a reality and anyone who suggested that there could be a better way was "living in a fantasy world." Much the same was said about those who advocated for the downfall of Apartheid in South Africa. Most foreign policy experts were blindsighted by the swift and mostly bloodless downfall of the Soviet Union in the early 90s. I could go on giving example after example from history, where what was once the status quo (and was even seen as the natural order of things) was radically changed in a relatively brief period to a state hardly imagined as possible by people living just decades earlier. Not only are such events plentiful in history, the rate at which such events are happening seems to be only increasing. The only thing certain about the future is that it's full of surprises. And the world is what we make it.
        jlgreco 14y ago
        This is idiotic; you either trolling or blinded by privilege; I am out.
    - tadfisher 14y ago
      Your argument: "Because I wouldn't like that job, nobody would like that job."
      - gnosis 14y ago
        And the counter argument seems to be, "Because someone could conceivably like that job, everyone doing that job must like it." Or maybe the counter argument is, "Well, they look happy in the pictures." Or is it, "They'd be even less happy without a job"? Except that no one's disputing these latter two arguments. Yes, they might be even more miserable without a job, but that doesn't mean their present job isn't depressing. And the apparent happiness in pictures cherry-picked by some PR hack for the wine industry is proof of nothing.
- novalis 14y ago
  I think the workers presented are rather candid, most you cannot even see their expression, so there is no faked "infomercial" quality to this. I am also aware that in any industry there will be people that are not happy for many valid reasons. I would not use the adjective "depressing" to qualify human labour that respects the environment it is set in, helps populations keep living in interior mediterranean areas, and to speak about the product; help make something that has a wide field of application. In fact these zones benefit from a lot of quality rural turism because of the loop feed that comes out of grape, cork, rural area setting with life quality parameters that are disappearing all around the world. These are strong people that shouldn't be paternalized for their strong value system that preserves habitat and social condition in a strong group pattern. But that is just my opinion based on the contact I have with this sort of cultural setting. All of these things make this specialized manual labour part of a culture that warrants preservation, not arbitrary value imposition.
  - gnosis 14y ago
    I freely admit I'm making a value judgment here. But I am not imposing my values on anyone. I'm just noting that I find the thought of anyone spending their whole life sorting or boiling corks depressing. I'm willing to go out on a limb to imagine they could have more interesting and more fulfilling jobs than that, and even that those jobs need not be environmentally destructive -- they might be environmentally beneficial, even. Is this such a stretch? Would that be so wrong? Is it inconceivable that some of these people might not actually enjoy spending all their work hours sorting or boiling cork? Just because they and perhaps their ancestors have been doing this for a long time, does that mean that they enjoy it or would not rather be doing something else with their time? Speaking of imposing values, perhaps these workers should actually be asked about what they want to do and whether they want their lives and their children's lives to be dedicated to sorting cork.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      It is incredibly obvious you have never worked this sort of job before. Prior to getting into university I worked fulltime at a green-bean processing plant. Green-beans come in on a truck, straight from a harvester, and leave on another truck cut and washed. Exposed to the elements (roof, but no walls) in deafening noise, standing in front of a conveyor belt for hours staring at green beans trying to grab all the dead field animals, sticks, and stems before they went into the cutting machine. The beans were soaking wet so my hands were constantly freezing. On good days they threw me a rake and told me to climb into the back of a tractor trailer. After a while that gave me RSI. It was I suspect worse than cork sorting or soaking. Certainly comparable. Did I enjoy this job? Hell no. Would I rather have been doing something else? No shit. Would I, even in retrospect, want myself forced out of that job at that time? Fuck no. Would I ever think of going back there and suggesting that all those other workers be replaced to improve their lives? You have got to be fucking kidding me.

Of course they seem to be quite happy. This entire article was basically an infomercial by the wine industry. Do you really expect them to post any photos of obviously miserable workers?

jlgreco 14y ago
You are right. These people would probably be much happier if robots took their jobs.
- gnosis 14y ago
  And you'd probably be much happier sorting corks 16 hours a day, 365 days a year.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Do you honestly believe you are making a rational point here? There are plenty of reasons to replace workers with robots, but "making those workers happier" is not one of them... "Hey Martha, we've noticed that you don't seem to find your job to be very enjoyable. Well good news, we've fired you!" ....
    - gnosis 14y ago
      How about instead, "Martha, you no longer have to work at a mind-numbingly boring (and probably unhealthy if not demeaning) job -- we've got robots for that. Instead, we're training you to do more interesting and more fulfilling work. While we're at it, we're also giving you a voice in the decision making process and part ownership of the company. You, along with your fellow workers can now decide how to run the company for your own benefit and that of society at large."
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        You are living in a fantasy world.
        gnosis 14y ago
        Not very long ago, it used to be inconceivable in America that blacks and whites would one day sit together at the same restaurant, drink from the same water fountain, use the same bathrooms, compete for the same jobs, go to the same schools, and even intermarry. Segragation was just a reality and anyone who suggested that there could be a better way was "living in a fantasy world." Much the same was said about those who advocated for the downfall of Apartheid in South Africa. Most foreign policy experts were blindsighted by the swift and mostly bloodless downfall of the Soviet Union in the early 90s. I could go on giving example after example from history, where what was once the status quo (and was even seen as the natural order of things) was radically changed in a relatively brief period to a state hardly imagined as possible by people living just decades earlier. Not only are such events plentiful in history, the rate at which such events are happening seems to be only increasing. The only thing certain about the future is that it's full of surprises. And the world is what we make it.
        jlgreco 14y ago
        This is idiotic; you either trolling or blinded by privilege; I am out.
  - tadfisher 14y ago
    Your argument: "Because I wouldn't like that job, nobody would like that job."
    - gnosis 14y ago
      And the counter argument seems to be, "Because someone could conceivably like that job, everyone doing that job must like it." Or maybe the counter argument is, "Well, they look happy in the pictures." Or is it, "They'd be even less happy without a job"? Except that no one's disputing these latter two arguments. Yes, they might be even more miserable without a job, but that doesn't mean their present job isn't depressing. And the apparent happiness in pictures cherry-picked by some PR hack for the wine industry is proof of nothing.
novalis 14y ago
I think the workers presented are rather candid, most you cannot even see their expression, so there is no faked "infomercial" quality to this. I am also aware that in any industry there will be people that are not happy for many valid reasons. I would not use the adjective "depressing" to qualify human labour that respects the environment it is set in, helps populations keep living in interior mediterranean areas, and to speak about the product; help make something that has a wide field of application. In fact these zones benefit from a lot of quality rural turism because of the loop feed that comes out of grape, cork, rural area setting with life quality parameters that are disappearing all around the world. These are strong people that shouldn't be paternalized for their strong value system that preserves habitat and social condition in a strong group pattern. But that is just my opinion based on the contact I have with this sort of cultural setting. All of these things make this specialized manual labour part of a culture that warrants preservation, not arbitrary value imposition.
- gnosis 14y ago
  I freely admit I'm making a value judgment here. But I am not imposing my values on anyone. I'm just noting that I find the thought of anyone spending their whole life sorting or boiling corks depressing. I'm willing to go out on a limb to imagine they could have more interesting and more fulfilling jobs than that, and even that those jobs need not be environmentally destructive -- they might be environmentally beneficial, even. Is this such a stretch? Would that be so wrong? Is it inconceivable that some of these people might not actually enjoy spending all their work hours sorting or boiling cork? Just because they and perhaps their ancestors have been doing this for a long time, does that mean that they enjoy it or would not rather be doing something else with their time? Speaking of imposing values, perhaps these workers should actually be asked about what they want to do and whether they want their lives and their children's lives to be dedicated to sorting cork.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    It is incredibly obvious you have never worked this sort of job before. Prior to getting into university I worked fulltime at a green-bean processing plant. Green-beans come in on a truck, straight from a harvester, and leave on another truck cut and washed. Exposed to the elements (roof, but no walls) in deafening noise, standing in front of a conveyor belt for hours staring at green beans trying to grab all the dead field animals, sticks, and stems before they went into the cutting machine. The beans were soaking wet so my hands were constantly freezing. On good days they threw me a rake and told me to climb into the back of a tractor trailer. After a while that gave me RSI. It was I suspect worse than cork sorting or soaking. Certainly comparable. Did I enjoy this job? Hell no. Would I rather have been doing something else? No shit. Would I, even in retrospect, want myself forced out of that job at that time? Fuck no. Would I ever think of going back there and suggesting that all those other workers be replaced to improve their lives? You have got to be fucking kidding me.