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So you suggestion is to remove the taxes and go back to mostly using coal for power? Or what's the suggestion here? Because those taxes are there because of the

So you suggestion is to remove the taxes and go back to mostly using coal for power? Or what's the suggestion here? Because those taxes are there because of the pollution, so unless you have better way of getting rid of the pollution yet using coal for power, I'm not sure there is something better than trying to tax it away so other source can be focused by business and industry instead.

mono442 10mo ago
Capping the price of CO2 emissions at a more reasonable level like 10 - 20 euro/t CO2 just like it was 10 years ago could be a decent compromise.
- embedding-shape 10mo ago
  Decent compromise to what? The group who want to pollute the world because it's cheaper? Doesn't sound like a compromise many of us would want.
  - mono442 10mo ago
    Countries outside European Union don't care about global warming anyway. It's a futile policy.
    - embedding-shape 10mo ago
      So? Countries outside of EU don't always care for human rights or other things we find important. That doesn't mean we shouldn't still aim for the values we stand for.
      - mono442 10mo ago
        Global warming is ultimately a global problem. It doesn't matter if you reduce your CO2 emissions if others aren't following.
        embedding-shape 10mo ago
        Indeed, but if everyone starts thinking "No one else is lowering their emissions so why would I?", how are we supposed to ever make any sort of progress? Someone doing something is always better than no one doing anything, can we at least agree on that?
        mono442 10mo ago
        But it is by no means obvious that carbon taxes are the right path. Targeted investments in low-emission energy sources might work better.
        embedding-shape 10mo ago
        Fair point, I agree, that isn't obvious. What is obvious to both of us (I assume?) is that pollution has to be lower, not just in the EU, but across the world. But we (Europeans) can mostly just influence what happens inside of Europe, EU and our countries. Hence, we do what we can to reduce it, where taxing it is one approach. With that said, more investments into other energy sources are totally welcome, and I don't think that should mean we also need to tax pollution less, we can have both :)
        p0pularopinion 10mo ago
        > But it is by no means obvious that carbon taxes are the right path. When the government says that the market should do something, people complain about government interference. When the government lets the market do something, but sets the right incentives, people are complaining about it again. Co2 taxation is effectively internalizing the cost of co2 pollution. The price goes up the more we pollute, because we have less budget until we cannot reach our goals anymore.
        piva00 10mo ago
        It does matter to follow through with your values though. Humanity isn't supposed to be just minmaxing economical output, a common set of values that we strive for is much more inspiring than burning everything to the ground, and leaving a world of ashes for future generations to capture maximum economical output right now. I don't think it's a hard mindset to understand, giving up because others aren't taking it as seriously is the cowardly way to go about it. It's much more meaningful to show it can be done, help to scale technologies to become cheaper and more accessible for poorer countries, and inspire others with examples that it can be done so action can spread.
    - Swenrekcah 10mo ago
      You might be interested to learn that both of those statements are very wrong.
    - dariosalvi78 10mo ago
      that is simply untrue. China, for as bad as it has historically been in terms of environment, it has invested waaaay more than anybody else in clean energy [1]. It's a game we are all in together and things are moving forward, albeit too slowly. [1] https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/annual-investment-in-clean-energy-by-selected-country-and-region-2019-and-2024 https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/annual-invest...

mono442 10mo ago

Capping the price of CO2 emissions at a more reasonable level like 10 - 20 euro/t CO2 just like it was 10 years ago could be a decent compromise.

embedding-shape 10mo ago
Decent compromise to what? The group who want to pollute the world because it's cheaper? Doesn't sound like a compromise many of us would want.
- mono442 10mo ago
  Countries outside European Union don't care about global warming anyway. It's a futile policy.
  - embedding-shape 10mo ago
    So? Countries outside of EU don't always care for human rights or other things we find important. That doesn't mean we shouldn't still aim for the values we stand for.
    - mono442 10mo ago
      Global warming is ultimately a global problem. It doesn't matter if you reduce your CO2 emissions if others aren't following.
      - embedding-shape 10mo ago
        Indeed, but if everyone starts thinking "No one else is lowering their emissions so why would I?", how are we supposed to ever make any sort of progress? Someone doing something is always better than no one doing anything, can we at least agree on that?
        mono442 10mo ago
        But it is by no means obvious that carbon taxes are the right path. Targeted investments in low-emission energy sources might work better.
        embedding-shape 10mo ago
        Fair point, I agree, that isn't obvious. What is obvious to both of us (I assume?) is that pollution has to be lower, not just in the EU, but across the world. But we (Europeans) can mostly just influence what happens inside of Europe, EU and our countries. Hence, we do what we can to reduce it, where taxing it is one approach. With that said, more investments into other energy sources are totally welcome, and I don't think that should mean we also need to tax pollution less, we can have both :)
        p0pularopinion 10mo ago
        > But it is by no means obvious that carbon taxes are the right path. When the government says that the market should do something, people complain about government interference. When the government lets the market do something, but sets the right incentives, people are complaining about it again. Co2 taxation is effectively internalizing the cost of co2 pollution. The price goes up the more we pollute, because we have less budget until we cannot reach our goals anymore.
      - piva00 10mo ago
        It does matter to follow through with your values though. Humanity isn't supposed to be just minmaxing economical output, a common set of values that we strive for is much more inspiring than burning everything to the ground, and leaving a world of ashes for future generations to capture maximum economical output right now. I don't think it's a hard mindset to understand, giving up because others aren't taking it as seriously is the cowardly way to go about it. It's much more meaningful to show it can be done, help to scale technologies to become cheaper and more accessible for poorer countries, and inspire others with examples that it can be done so action can spread.
  - Swenrekcah 10mo ago
    You might be interested to learn that both of those statements are very wrong.
  - dariosalvi78 10mo ago
    that is simply untrue. China, for as bad as it has historically been in terms of environment, it has invested waaaay more than anybody else in clean energy [1]. It's a game we are all in together and things are moving forward, albeit too slowly. [1] https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/annual-investment-in-clean-energy-by-selected-country-and-region-2019-and-2024 https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/annual-invest...