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Energy is expensive because burning fossil fuels is expensive due to taxes. A coal power plant pays around two times more for emissions than for the coal itself
by mono442 9mo ago
Energy is expensive because burning fossil fuels is expensive due to taxes. A coal power plant pays around two times more for emissions than for the coal itself. They're trying to solve a problem which they have created themselves in the first place.
- embedding-shape 9mo agoSo you suggestion is to remove the taxes and go back to mostly using coal for power? Or what's the suggestion here? Because those taxes are there because of the pollution, so unless you have better way of getting rid of the pollution yet using coal for power, I'm not sure there is something better than trying to tax it away so other source can be focused by business and industry instead.
- mono442 9mo agoCapping the price of CO2 emissions at a more reasonable level like 10 - 20 euro/t CO2 just like it was 10 years ago could be a decent compromise.
- embedding-shape 9mo agoDecent compromise to what? The group who want to pollute the world because it's cheaper? Doesn't sound like a compromise many of us would want.
- mono442 9mo agoCountries outside European Union don't care about global warming anyway. It's a futile policy.
- embedding-shape 9mo agoSo? Countries outside of EU don't always care for human rights or other things we find important. That doesn't mean we shouldn't still aim for the values we stand for.
- mono442 9mo agoGlobal warming is ultimately a global problem. It doesn't matter if you reduce your CO2 emissions if others aren't following.
- embedding-shape 9mo agoIndeed, but if everyone starts thinking "No one else is lowering their emissions so why would I?", how are we supposed to ever make any sort of progress? Someone doing something is always better than no one doing anything, can we at least agree on that?
- mono442 9mo agoBut it is by no means obvious that carbon taxes are the right path. Targeted investments in low-emission energy sources might work better.
- embedding-shape 9mo agoFair point, I agree, that isn't obvious. What is obvious to both of us (I assume?) is that pollution has to be lower, not just in the EU, but across the world. But we (Europeans) can mostly just influence what happens inside of Europe, EU and our countries. Hence, we do what we can to reduce it, where taxing it is one approach. With that said, more investments into other energy sources are totally welcome, and I don't think that should mean we also need to tax pollution less, we can have both :)
- p0pularopinion 9mo ago> But it is by no means obvious that carbon taxes are the right path. When the government says that the market should do something, people complain about government interference. When the government lets the market do something, but sets the right incentives, people are complaining about it again. Co2 taxation is effectively internalizing the cost of co2 pollution. The price goes up the more we pollute, because we have less budget until we cannot reach our goals anymore.
- Swenrekcah 9mo agoYou might be interested to learn that both of those statements are very wrong.
- dariosalvi78 9mo agothat is simply untrue. China, for as bad as it has historically been in terms of environment, it has invested waaaay more than anybody else in clean energy [1]. It's a game we are all in together and things are moving forward, albeit too slowly. [1] https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/annual-investment-in-clean-energy-by-selected-country-and-region-2019-and-2024 https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/annual-invest...
- paintbox 9mo agoEnergy is expensive because fossil fuels are destroying the only planet we have. If a person is taking lifesaving medicine that unfortunately makes their skin itch, you wouldn't call itchiness "a problem which they have created themselves in the first place"...
- yread 9mo agoAnd how pays for the healthcare that's indeed for the people downwind of that plant? How much does lung cancer treatment cost compared to coal?
- dv_dt 9mo agoThat is a dubious claim of the accounting chain for expense of fossil fuels, which also ignores defensive tariffs for energy sources like Chines manufactured solar, wind and batteries. Though maybe it speaks to more beaucratic process around the energy not the core energy costs itself.
- ViewTrick1002 9mo agoEurope is energy poor. We will never be able to compete on raw cost with the US, China and similar. Our path forward are through renewables, which today are vastly cheaper than fossil fuels. We decide the speed of the transition to green cheap energy by how much we tax fossil fuels. Low taxes = slow transition. High taxes = fast transition.
- mono442 9mo agoI don't believe this is true. The US has also seen a big growth of the renewables in recent years and they have managed to do it without carbon taxes.
- ViewTrick1002 9mo agoThat tells you how cheap renewables are today, especially when American energy markets generally are more monopolistic in structure. The faster we get off fossil fuels the better. The growth in the US is much smaller than Europe, except a few cases like California.