7 ms·

Yes on paper. Submitted version differs from what customers run at home/work.

by timeon 9mo ago

yokoprime 9mo ago
Im sorry, but i dont buy that. Unix certification has nothing to do with number of processes running or "efficiency"! The OS must be SUS compliant, i.e have all the core interfaces in place, all the correct utilities (awk, grep, vi, sed etc) and theres something about header files, filesystem requirements etc. even if the macOS submitted for certification is super trimmed down, it does not matter as long as its a true subset of what is shipped to consumers. MacOS is certified UNIX i.e its "UNIX", like it or not. On this point the article is just wrong.
- timetopay 9mo ago
  Unix is both a family of operating systems and also a trademark. The name is overloaded - "Unix" is more than one thing at the same time. In addition, the trademark is "UNIX" and the operating system family is "Unix" MacOS is both UNIX and also not Unix at the same time. If the trademark holders decided to UNIX certify my cat, which is well within their legal right to do so, would that make her UNIX?
  - greggsy 9mo ago
    Unlike macOS, your cat does not, and will not, meet the industry-accepted standard that describes unix as we know it today. https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/xym0.htm https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/xym0.htm
    - remix2000 9mo ago
      Mayhaps not with a `cat(1)` alone, but really they just need to expand their menagerie now.
    - bigyabai 9mo ago
      Like macOS, my cat does not qualify for the UNIX standard out-of-the-box and I'm far too lazy to configure my cat for an OS standard that's 25 years obsolete.
    - shiomiru 9mo ago
      > as we know it today An important nuance you seem to be missing is that SUSv3 is equivalent to "IEEE Std 1003.1-2001" (that is, POSIX 2001). In practice, I've had to work around more POSIX compatibility issues in macOS than in all other actively developed (Free) Unix-likes, combined.
  - remix2000 9mo ago
    Or perhaps they just won't certify your cat just as Apple won't start making Windows PCs…?
greggsy 9mo ago
The compliance trope that a point-in-time-assessment can't be used to support a claim is kind of a lazy take. The certification explicitly states macOS v26.0 Tahoe. While it's true that it wasn't always truly UNIX compliant, they put in the hard yards to become so (albeit to avoid a $200M lawsuit from The Open Group) [1] [1] https://www.quora.com/What-goes-into-making-an-OS-to-be-Unix-compliant-certified/answer/Terry-Lambert https://www.quora.com/What-goes-into-making-an-OS-to-be-Unix...
- p_ing 9mo ago
  To certify any version of macOS as UNIX, the security had to be significantly altered (disabling SIP) among a few other things. This is why what is shipped is not what is certified as UNIX. You can /make/ it match what is certified as an administrator, but that would be inadvisable. https://www.osnews.com/story/141633/apples-macos-unix-certification-is-a-lie/ https://www.osnews.com/story/141633/apples-macos-unix-certif... EDIT: And really, UNIX certification means nothing except to potentially government agencies and people who don't understand what UNIX and/or UNIX certification is. Or why being "certified UNIX" is generally meaningless: see the BSDs, which are much closer to "UNIX" origins than macOS will ever be. Or Windows, which is frankly just has better architected internals and abandons legacy UNIX ;-)
  - rayiner 9mo ago
    > is. Or why being "certified UNIX" is generally meaningless: see the BSDs, which are much closer to "UNIX" origins than macOS will ever be MacOS is BSD over Mach, which is itself derived from BSD.
    - p_ing 9mo ago
      Yes, that's the point. It's further removed from UNIX than the BSDs are. macOS contains BSD userland, networking, file system, POSIX, and a couple of other things. But XNU, the kernel, is "X is Not UNIX", if there ever was a statement to be made about the underpinnings of macOS. https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/Architecture/Architecture.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da...

Yes on paper. Submitted version differs from what customers run at home/work.

by timeon 9mo ago

Yes on paper. Submitted version differs from what customers run at home/work.

Im sorry, but i dont buy that. Unix certification has nothing to do with number of processes running or "efficiency"! The OS must be SUS compliant, i.e have all the core interfaces in place, all the correct utilities (awk, grep, vi, sed etc) and theres something about header files, filesystem requirements etc. even if the macOS submitted for certification is super trimmed down, it does not matter as long as its a true subset of what is shipped to consumers. MacOS is certified UNIX i.e its "UNIX", like it or not. On this point the article is just wrong.

timetopay 9mo ago
Unix is both a family of operating systems and also a trademark. The name is overloaded - "Unix" is more than one thing at the same time. In addition, the trademark is "UNIX" and the operating system family is "Unix" MacOS is both UNIX and also not Unix at the same time. If the trademark holders decided to UNIX certify my cat, which is well within their legal right to do so, would that make her UNIX?
- greggsy 9mo ago
  Unlike macOS, your cat does not, and will not, meet the industry-accepted standard that describes unix as we know it today. https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/xym0.htm https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/xym0.htm
  - remix2000 9mo ago
    Mayhaps not with a `cat(1)` alone, but really they just need to expand their menagerie now.
  - bigyabai 9mo ago
    Like macOS, my cat does not qualify for the UNIX standard out-of-the-box and I'm far too lazy to configure my cat for an OS standard that's 25 years obsolete.
  - shiomiru 9mo ago
    > as we know it today An important nuance you seem to be missing is that SUSv3 is equivalent to "IEEE Std 1003.1-2001" (that is, POSIX 2001). In practice, I've had to work around more POSIX compatibility issues in macOS than in all other actively developed (Free) Unix-likes, combined.
- remix2000 9mo ago
  Or perhaps they just won't certify your cat just as Apple won't start making Windows PCs…?

greggsy 9mo ago

The compliance trope that a point-in-time-assessment can't be used to support a claim is kind of a lazy take. The certification explicitly states macOS v26.0 Tahoe. While it's true that it wasn't always truly UNIX compliant, they put in the hard yards to become so (albeit to avoid a $200M lawsuit from The Open Group) [1] [1] https://www.quora.com/What-goes-into-making-an-OS-to-be-Unix-compliant-certified/answer/Terry-Lambert https://www.quora.com/What-goes-into-making-an-OS-to-be-Unix...

p_ing 9mo ago
To certify any version of macOS as UNIX, the security had to be significantly altered (disabling SIP) among a few other things. This is why what is shipped is not what is certified as UNIX. You can /make/ it match what is certified as an administrator, but that would be inadvisable. https://www.osnews.com/story/141633/apples-macos-unix-certification-is-a-lie/ https://www.osnews.com/story/141633/apples-macos-unix-certif... EDIT: And really, UNIX certification means nothing except to potentially government agencies and people who don't understand what UNIX and/or UNIX certification is. Or why being "certified UNIX" is generally meaningless: see the BSDs, which are much closer to "UNIX" origins than macOS will ever be. Or Windows, which is frankly just has better architected internals and abandons legacy UNIX ;-)
- rayiner 9mo ago
  > is. Or why being "certified UNIX" is generally meaningless: see the BSDs, which are much closer to "UNIX" origins than macOS will ever be MacOS is BSD over Mach, which is itself derived from BSD.
  - p_ing 9mo ago
    Yes, that's the point. It's further removed from UNIX than the BSDs are. macOS contains BSD userland, networking, file system, POSIX, and a couple of other things. But XNU, the kernel, is "X is Not UNIX", if there ever was a statement to be made about the underpinnings of macOS. https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/Architecture/Architecture.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da...