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Based on just this article, it seems far most likely to me that it was a place to hide during an attack. > And while three brave explorers in the 21st century

Based on just this article, it seems far most likely to me that it was a place to hide during an attack. > And while three brave explorers in the 21st century once spent 48 hours in an erdstall, crawling to new sections whenever oxygen became scarce, it seems unlikely that they would have been constructed as hiding places, even temporary ones. Though they could have provided refuge for a small family, why would they be accessed from such public spaces? I don't see why a whole bunch of people couldn't have hidden in them for several hours during an attack/raid? A hiding spot sufficiently known to a few, just big enough. And then it makes perfect sense the entrance would be in some central public place. > The lack of exits is a further strike against this theory—if enemies became aware of such a tunnel being used as shelter, it would quickly become a death trap for its inhabitants. Which would contribute to their extreme secrecy. And the loops and dead ends and narrow spots make it all the harder for attackers to pursue you even if they find it. > Besides, in either of these cases, one would expect at least some goods to have been left behind—remnants of food or clothing, cached or dropped valuables. Instead, there is nothing. If they were intended for hiding for just a few hours, since oxygen would run out anyways, it makes sense for nothing to be left in there. You rush in and come back out when the raiders have moved on. Clothing was valuable, you weren't going to leave your shawl behind.

IAmBroom 9mo ago
There's zero reason to expect remnants of food, as well. It was not shelf(tunnel)-stable.
- bluGill 9mo ago
  There would still be signs. The food rots - but it would leave traces.
  - IAmBroom 9mo ago
    Only if the tube was used for long enough to need food. If you are hiding your family from almost certain death, 24 hours with no food or water in a cool dark cave is a possibility.
    - ycombinatrix 9mo ago
      The proximity to churches + lack of ventilation makes this theory unlikely in my head. I also feel that some families would have grabbed some food or water before heading down there.
      - IAmBroom 9mo ago
        Why does proximity to churches matter?
        ycombinatrix 9mo ago
        Having your family leave the home & run to the church during an attack seems ill-advised.
        crazygringo 9mo ago
        Presumably it's not meant for the entire town. Just the people who are already in town nearby who have enough advance warning. It makes sense to be in a church since that's in the center of town and you can lock the doors to give enough time for people to get into it and cover the entrance. If your family were at home in the nearby countryside they'd flee into the forest or something instead.
alwa 9mo ago
Indeed: that would help reconcile the presumed secrecy with the fact that, also per the article, there are upwards of 2000 of these tunnel-structures that fall into this category. All across Central Europe. Aggressor knows THAT there's likely a safe-tunnel, but doesn't know exactly WHERE the safe-tunnel is, and whether it's worth taking the time to find... For that matter—A place to stash the kids from the census-taker and the harvest from the tax man? Tuck them away, just for that day, once every so often, and pull them out afterward? Or knowledge privileged to some specific order, whose representatives are geographically widespread but sparse within a given community?
- araes 9mo ago
  Tax collector avoidance is actually a pretty excellent alternative proposal. From searching, it looks like a lot of the taxes were on stuff that was difficult to hide, like farm animals owned, and houses / farmland. However, this site [1] shows several categories for taxation that might be hidden to falsify the taxation basis. Cash, Inventories, Household Goods, Luxury Clothing. Admittedly, it seems like there would be a greater percentage of items left behind in some of these locations, since there often tend to be something. Yet, for taxation avoidance purposes, maybe they're very motivated to recollect everything that was hidden. [1] https://ehs.org.uk/taxation-and-wealth-inequality-in-the-german-territories-of-the-holy-roman-empire-1350-1800/ https://ehs.org.uk/taxation-and-wealth-inequality-in-the-ger...
  - crazygringo 9mo ago
    Interesting, but probably you'd hide things like cash or clothing in a small box nearby, buried maybe. Not in a large communal tunnel.
- pseudohadamard 9mo ago
  Read the paragraph about halfway down: The erdstall surely could not have been built with storage in mind, since their length and narrowness offer no advantages over a conventional and convenient cellar. And while three brave explorers in the 21st century once spent 48 hours in an erdstall, crawling to new sections whenever oxygen became scarce, it seems unlikely that they would have been constructed as hiding places, even temporary ones. Though they could have provided refuge for a small family, why would they be accessed from such public spaces? Or be too small for a large man or pregnant woman to fit through? The lack of exits is a further strike against this theory—if enemies became aware of such a tunnel being used as shelter, it would quickly become a death trap for its inhabitants. Besides, in either of these cases, one would expect at least some goods to have been left behind—remnants of food or clothing, cached or dropped valuables. Instead, there is nothing You also need to look at the locations and context. There are several of these things in the region my family comes from and at the estimated time they were built there were no invaders or other problems that would justify using them as shelters. Not to mention that if there were, you'd hide your family in existing shelters in the surrounding forests or hills, not some cramped underground deathtrap.
tim-tday 9mo ago
No way I’d hide in a hole without another exit. And if I went to the trouble to dig a hidey- hole I’d prepare it with a jug of water and a snack.
- crazygringo 9mo ago
  If the alternative was being hacked to death, I venture to guess you probably would.
  - nosianu 9mo ago
    No, the alternative would be that they would have build something tat would much better fit that purpose. You are trying to fit a square peg through a round hole here. The article mentions why all the common ideas don't make sense. The theories proposed here are merely examples of human brains ability to come up with a fantastic story for anything in the absence of data. Ex falso quodlibet - from zero follows everything, if you have nothing you can just say anything you want, and it will "explain" your non-existing data perfectly /s The extremely narrow passages, only one exit, bad air circulation, there is nothing that hints towards this being used for hiding, quite the opposite. > And while three brave explorers in the 21st century once spent 48 hours in an erdstall, crawling to new sections whenever oxygen became scarce, it seems unlikely that they would have been constructed as hiding places, even temporary ones
    - crazygringo 9mo ago
      Why are you quoting to me something I myself already quoted in order to disagree with...? I know the article mentions why hiding doesn't make sense. My whole comment is about how the reasons it gives don't hold up.
sleepyguy 9mo ago
Most likely for woman and children to hide as a last resort, the men would be tasked with defense. Hence the size of the tunnels and the narrow connections. The fact there was nothing found in them could mean they were never needed and not used

IAmBroom 9mo ago

There's zero reason to expect remnants of food, as well. It was not shelf(tunnel)-stable.

bluGill 9mo ago
There would still be signs. The food rots - but it would leave traces.
- IAmBroom 9mo ago
  Only if the tube was used for long enough to need food. If you are hiding your family from almost certain death, 24 hours with no food or water in a cool dark cave is a possibility.
  - ycombinatrix 9mo ago
    The proximity to churches + lack of ventilation makes this theory unlikely in my head. I also feel that some families would have grabbed some food or water before heading down there.
    - IAmBroom 9mo ago
      Why does proximity to churches matter?
      - ycombinatrix 9mo ago
        Having your family leave the home & run to the church during an attack seems ill-advised.
        crazygringo 9mo ago
        Presumably it's not meant for the entire town. Just the people who are already in town nearby who have enough advance warning. It makes sense to be in a church since that's in the center of town and you can lock the doors to give enough time for people to get into it and cover the entrance. If your family were at home in the nearby countryside they'd flee into the forest or something instead.

alwa 9mo ago

Indeed: that would help reconcile the presumed secrecy with the fact that, also per the article, there are upwards of 2000 of these tunnel-structures that fall into this category. All across Central Europe. Aggressor knows THAT there's likely a safe-tunnel, but doesn't know exactly WHERE the safe-tunnel is, and whether it's worth taking the time to find... For that matter—A place to stash the kids from the census-taker and the harvest from the tax man? Tuck them away, just for that day, once every so often, and pull them out afterward? Or knowledge privileged to some specific order, whose representatives are geographically widespread but sparse within a given community?

araes 9mo ago
Tax collector avoidance is actually a pretty excellent alternative proposal. From searching, it looks like a lot of the taxes were on stuff that was difficult to hide, like farm animals owned, and houses / farmland. However, this site [1] shows several categories for taxation that might be hidden to falsify the taxation basis. Cash, Inventories, Household Goods, Luxury Clothing. Admittedly, it seems like there would be a greater percentage of items left behind in some of these locations, since there often tend to be something. Yet, for taxation avoidance purposes, maybe they're very motivated to recollect everything that was hidden. [1] https://ehs.org.uk/taxation-and-wealth-inequality-in-the-german-territories-of-the-holy-roman-empire-1350-1800/ https://ehs.org.uk/taxation-and-wealth-inequality-in-the-ger...
- crazygringo 9mo ago
  Interesting, but probably you'd hide things like cash or clothing in a small box nearby, buried maybe. Not in a large communal tunnel.
pseudohadamard 9mo ago
Read the paragraph about halfway down: The erdstall surely could not have been built with storage in mind, since their length and narrowness offer no advantages over a conventional and convenient cellar. And while three brave explorers in the 21st century once spent 48 hours in an erdstall, crawling to new sections whenever oxygen became scarce, it seems unlikely that they would have been constructed as hiding places, even temporary ones. Though they could have provided refuge for a small family, why would they be accessed from such public spaces? Or be too small for a large man or pregnant woman to fit through? The lack of exits is a further strike against this theory—if enemies became aware of such a tunnel being used as shelter, it would quickly become a death trap for its inhabitants. Besides, in either of these cases, one would expect at least some goods to have been left behind—remnants of food or clothing, cached or dropped valuables. Instead, there is nothing You also need to look at the locations and context. There are several of these things in the region my family comes from and at the estimated time they were built there were no invaders or other problems that would justify using them as shelters. Not to mention that if there were, you'd hide your family in existing shelters in the surrounding forests or hills, not some cramped underground deathtrap.

tim-tday 9mo ago

No way I’d hide in a hole without another exit. And if I went to the trouble to dig a hidey- hole I’d prepare it with a jug of water and a snack.

crazygringo 9mo ago
If the alternative was being hacked to death, I venture to guess you probably would.
- nosianu 9mo ago
  No, the alternative would be that they would have build something tat would much better fit that purpose. You are trying to fit a square peg through a round hole here. The article mentions why all the common ideas don't make sense. The theories proposed here are merely examples of human brains ability to come up with a fantastic story for anything in the absence of data. Ex falso quodlibet - from zero follows everything, if you have nothing you can just say anything you want, and it will "explain" your non-existing data perfectly /s The extremely narrow passages, only one exit, bad air circulation, there is nothing that hints towards this being used for hiding, quite the opposite. > And while three brave explorers in the 21st century once spent 48 hours in an erdstall, crawling to new sections whenever oxygen became scarce, it seems unlikely that they would have been constructed as hiding places, even temporary ones
  - crazygringo 9mo ago
    Why are you quoting to me something I myself already quoted in order to disagree with...? I know the article mentions why hiding doesn't make sense. My whole comment is about how the reasons it gives don't hold up.

sleepyguy 9mo ago

Most likely for woman and children to hide as a last resort, the men would be tasked with defense. Hence the size of the tunnels and the narrow connections. The fact there was nothing found in them could mean they were never needed and not used