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> And why shouldn't it when there is zero negative ramifications for being completely fucking unethical? Well, I mean, except for large, systemic ramifications

> And why shouldn't it when there is zero negative ramifications for being completely fucking unethical? Well, I mean, except for large, systemic ramifications that affect everyone in society, but who's counting?

ianbutler 9mo ago
In practice the system is such that 'everyone' doesn't really seem to include the people making a lot of money they are effectively outside the system the rest of us have to deal with.
browningstreet 9mo ago
I was chatting with someone about the evils of capitalism. My position was that capitalism was viable as long as culture controlled capitalism. When culture capitulates to capitalism it's a death spiral. When I speak with overseas friends there's often a sense of "of course" or "reasonable" moral lines in the relationship between their culture and where capitalism can't tread. That seems completely gone right now in the US, though it's been heading in that direction for decades. It was mediated by social constructs that have since been completely eradicated. EDIT: Always interesting to watch comment points go up and then come down.
- macintux 9mo ago
  When U.S. lawmakers admitted that between democracy and capitalism they'd pick capitalism, I knew we were in trouble.
  - DangitBobby 9mo ago
    Are you referring to a specific event here?
    - macintux 9mo ago
      Here's an example: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/capitalism-trumps-democracy-for-trump-fed-pick-stephen-moore.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/capitalism-trumps-democracy-...
- mgrat 9mo ago
  If I have any hope for the future of America it is that the upcoming generation finds 'Industrial Society and its Future', and instead of becoming radicalized, simply turns its back on tech fetishization.
- pixl97 9mo ago
  Almost any reply mentioning that capitalism actually could have some problems on HN ends up being controversial. I can only assume some hate it and others worship it like a god.
pixl97 9mo ago
The people making obscene amounts of money give zero shits about that. They live in private neighborhoods with private security guards and send their kids to private schools. Once they get enough money they fly on private jets and go to private islands to private parties that you're not invited to. Simply put the consolidation of wealth in a very small percentage of the population always leads to outcomes like this. These people become completely disconnected from the reality that 98% of the rest of their country lives in.
- rhubarbtree 9mo ago
  You cannot build morals through legislation. Ultimately all systems rely on the individual to behave responsibly and morally. You cannot legislate your way out of that. The collapse of collective consideration is a major reason the west is in decline. Championed by neoliberals without insight into history, it seems.
  - pixl97 9mo ago
    >Championed by neoliberals without insight into history, Ah yes, it was the neoliberals that spout "I am the rugged American individualist and I don't need no society"
    - rhubarbtree 9mo ago
      That is exactly correct, are you being sarcastic?
  - birthdaywizard 9mo ago
    You can absolutely disincentivize unethical behavior through legislation though, whether they believe it at the core of their being or not. See slavery, murder, rape, robbery, etc. There will always be loopholes people can exploit, but that doesn't mean legislating away the larger ones doesn't have an effect. Legislation on education curriculums can also have an impact on people's core morals, though that can be tough when even concepts like "share your toys" and "slavery was wrong" can be called indoctrination these days.

ianbutler 9mo ago

In practice the system is such that 'everyone' doesn't really seem to include the people making a lot of money they are effectively outside the system the rest of us have to deal with.

browningstreet 9mo ago

I was chatting with someone about the evils of capitalism. My position was that capitalism was viable as long as culture controlled capitalism. When culture capitulates to capitalism it's a death spiral. When I speak with overseas friends there's often a sense of "of course" or "reasonable" moral lines in the relationship between their culture and where capitalism can't tread. That seems completely gone right now in the US, though it's been heading in that direction for decades. It was mediated by social constructs that have since been completely eradicated. EDIT: Always interesting to watch comment points go up and then come down.

macintux 9mo ago
When U.S. lawmakers admitted that between democracy and capitalism they'd pick capitalism, I knew we were in trouble.
- DangitBobby 9mo ago
  Are you referring to a specific event here?
  - macintux 9mo ago
    Here's an example: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/capitalism-trumps-democracy-for-trump-fed-pick-stephen-moore.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/capitalism-trumps-democracy-...
mgrat 9mo ago
If I have any hope for the future of America it is that the upcoming generation finds 'Industrial Society and its Future', and instead of becoming radicalized, simply turns its back on tech fetishization.
pixl97 9mo ago
Almost any reply mentioning that capitalism actually could have some problems on HN ends up being controversial. I can only assume some hate it and others worship it like a god.

pixl97 9mo ago

The people making obscene amounts of money give zero shits about that. They live in private neighborhoods with private security guards and send their kids to private schools. Once they get enough money they fly on private jets and go to private islands to private parties that you're not invited to. Simply put the consolidation of wealth in a very small percentage of the population always leads to outcomes like this. These people become completely disconnected from the reality that 98% of the rest of their country lives in.

rhubarbtree 9mo ago
You cannot build morals through legislation. Ultimately all systems rely on the individual to behave responsibly and morally. You cannot legislate your way out of that. The collapse of collective consideration is a major reason the west is in decline. Championed by neoliberals without insight into history, it seems.
- pixl97 9mo ago
  >Championed by neoliberals without insight into history, Ah yes, it was the neoliberals that spout "I am the rugged American individualist and I don't need no society"
  - rhubarbtree 9mo ago
    That is exactly correct, are you being sarcastic?
- birthdaywizard 9mo ago
  You can absolutely disincentivize unethical behavior through legislation though, whether they believe it at the core of their being or not. See slavery, murder, rape, robbery, etc. There will always be loopholes people can exploit, but that doesn't mean legislating away the larger ones doesn't have an effect. Legislation on education curriculums can also have an impact on people's core morals, though that can be tough when even concepts like "share your toys" and "slavery was wrong" can be called indoctrination these days.