4 ms·

It's funny, because I had been feeling this in my gut - the idea that they do have oversight over flagging and downvoting, and they just pick and choose who the

by LexiMax 9mo ago

It's funny, because I had been feeling this in my gut - the idea that they do have oversight over flagging and downvoting, and they just pick and choose who they go after based on biases. To that end, I've actually been avoiding the downvote and flag button entirely. It's handy to close off an avenue of admin retaliation, but on a deeper level I feel like the reflexive race to downvote people you disagree with is the "game" part of gamified engagement. Besides, if an HN user says something horrendous, I feel like other HN users deserve to know the kind of company they have on this site, instead of tone-policing it under the rug.

immibis 9mo ago
[flagged]
dang 9mo ago
There's no aspect of this that we haven't publicly explained over and over again. Here's one example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46378818 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46378818. Here are countless others: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20flags&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... If you read some of those explanations and still have a question that isn't answered there, I'd be happy to take a crack at it. What you shouldn't do is take commenters' claims about it un-skeptically, because sometimes (as in this case) they are false.
- immibis 9mo ago
  You don't explain the aspect where a certain political group generates way more flaggable content, and then you flag-ban those who flag it, which promotes that content because it is no longer flagged. You also don't explain how 2 posts per 3 hours constitutes a "ban".
  - dang 9mo ago
    Re your first statement: certainly I've addressed that issue many times, but I can do it again: I don't believe that claim is true. It merely feels true to people with strong political passions, because everyone always over-weights the contributions of their enemies and under-weights the contributions of their own side. The significant thing—I was going to say "the ironic thing", but it isn't ironic—is that this class of politically passionate users all have the same perception even though they may have entirely opposing beliefs. In this they resemble each other more than they do anyone else. I don't understand your second statement.
    - immibis 9mo ago
      You said you banned me, but what you actually did was reduce my rate limit to 2 comments per rate limit period. You deleted a comment from me where I said that drugs don't let you access extra dimensions or planes of existence, just alter your mental processes so you feel like you do. Care to explain that one? Other moderated comments included: "HN has word-based flagging" and "flags should not be used to indicate disagreement".
      - dang 9mo ago
        We definitely banned you, for the reasons I gave at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46699941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46699941. Banned accounts can still post to HN but their posts are killed by default. You seem to be asking about https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46694184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46694184 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46691754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46691754. Those comments were killed by user flags. That was before we banned you.
        immibis 9mo ago
        The buck always stops with the platform owners. You don't get to blame users for moderation decisions.
        dang 9mo ago
- LexiMax 9mo ago
  I do not take their claims un-skeptically. I've been lied to one too many times by users who claim, "Oh I totally didn't do anything to get banned, bro." But I don't trust you either, and my reasons for being reluctant to flag and downvote are genuine. This is because I've also seen moderation teams who swear up and down that they're not biased, but who later get caught out when they put their finger on the scale through action or deliberate inaction. But there's another dimension to the unfrustworthiness, because I have also seen moderation teams who don't put their finger on the scale per se, but are so invested in their own rules that they let their community rot beneath their feet from people who have figured out how to manipulate them.
  - dang 9mo ago
    If you can find an instance of me saying we're not biased, I'd love to see it, because I'm pretty sure I've never said that. What I've said, and believe, is that of course we're biased, because it's impossible not to be and because unconscious bias is a thing, but that we at least try to mitigate the effects of it, and have a lot of practice at doing so. Are those efforts negligible? I doubt it. I think HN would be a different place if we weren't trying to do that.

by LexiMax 9mo ago

immibis 9mo ago

[flagged]

dang 9mo ago

There's no aspect of this that we haven't publicly explained over and over again. Here's one example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46378818 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46378818. Here are countless others: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20flags&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... If you read some of those explanations and still have a question that isn't answered there, I'd be happy to take a crack at it. What you shouldn't do is take commenters' claims about it un-skeptically, because sometimes (as in this case) they are false.

immibis 9mo ago
You don't explain the aspect where a certain political group generates way more flaggable content, and then you flag-ban those who flag it, which promotes that content because it is no longer flagged. You also don't explain how 2 posts per 3 hours constitutes a "ban".
- dang 9mo ago
  Re your first statement: certainly I've addressed that issue many times, but I can do it again: I don't believe that claim is true. It merely feels true to people with strong political passions, because everyone always over-weights the contributions of their enemies and under-weights the contributions of their own side. The significant thing—I was going to say "the ironic thing", but it isn't ironic—is that this class of politically passionate users all have the same perception even though they may have entirely opposing beliefs. In this they resemble each other more than they do anyone else. I don't understand your second statement.
  - immibis 9mo ago
    You said you banned me, but what you actually did was reduce my rate limit to 2 comments per rate limit period. You deleted a comment from me where I said that drugs don't let you access extra dimensions or planes of existence, just alter your mental processes so you feel like you do. Care to explain that one? Other moderated comments included: "HN has word-based flagging" and "flags should not be used to indicate disagreement".
    - dang 9mo ago
      We definitely banned you, for the reasons I gave at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46699941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46699941. Banned accounts can still post to HN but their posts are killed by default. You seem to be asking about https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46694184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46694184 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46691754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46691754. Those comments were killed by user flags. That was before we banned you.
      - immibis 9mo ago
        The buck always stops with the platform owners. You don't get to blame users for moderation decisions.
        dang 9mo ago
LexiMax 9mo ago
I do not take their claims un-skeptically. I've been lied to one too many times by users who claim, "Oh I totally didn't do anything to get banned, bro." But I don't trust you either, and my reasons for being reluctant to flag and downvote are genuine. This is because I've also seen moderation teams who swear up and down that they're not biased, but who later get caught out when they put their finger on the scale through action or deliberate inaction. But there's another dimension to the unfrustworthiness, because I have also seen moderation teams who don't put their finger on the scale per se, but are so invested in their own rules that they let their community rot beneath their feet from people who have figured out how to manipulate them.
- dang 9mo ago
  If you can find an instance of me saying we're not biased, I'd love to see it, because I'm pretty sure I've never said that. What I've said, and believe, is that of course we're biased, because it's impossible not to be and because unconscious bias is a thing, but that we at least try to mitigate the effects of it, and have a lot of practice at doing so. Are those efforts negligible? I doubt it. I think HN would be a different place if we weren't trying to do that.