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China may become the superpower on volume but I would be surprised if the upper quartile (by price) of western buyers were interested in Chinese vehicles. Too m
by appplication 9mo ago
China may become the superpower on volume but I would be surprised if the upper quartile (by price) of western buyers were interested in Chinese vehicles. Too much quality issues across the board on Chinese made products, unless you have a trusted non-Chinese company with stringent quality control (e.g. Apple model).
I’m sure they can handily win the lower end of the market though. And yes I’m aware many western manufacturers are shit tier quality.
- sdwr 9mo agoSelling the most cars will eventually translate into making the best cars, with the compounding experience and network effects.
- willturman 9mo agoYou'd think so, but also, Tesla.
- kulahan 9mo agoThey don’t sell anywhere near the most cars, and their market share is shrinking. They also are a very VERY young manufacturer. This isn’t the right example to use imo. Maybe Jeep? Very popular, dogwater quality. They take nearly half of the Consumer Reports “top 10 worst cars on the road” almost every year.
- appplication 9mo ago> Selling the most x will eventually translate into making the best x It’s a theory for sure, but I don’t think that’s a common strategy for modern capitalism.
- andyferris 9mo agoWhat about for socialism with Chinese charateristics?
- olyjohn 9mo agoThe motivations from the people at the top are the same. Minimal effort and maximum profit.
- linksnapzz 9mo agoAt the time the US was making the most cars in the world...quality varied widely, to be generous.
- ericd 9mo agoI don’t think this is accurate, Chinese firms are increasingly moving up the quality chain. You might want to look at some of the reviews of Xiaomi’s recently launched car. Also, Tesla Shanghai is one of their best factories, much better quality scores than Fremont iirc. Having a totally local, integrated supply chain pays dividends in a lot of ways, as does leading in production volume. Tim Cook also gave that interview where he was just talking about the incredibly deep bench of industrial talent that you just can’t find outside China at this point - that labor cost wasn’t why they produced there.
- appplication 9mo agoThe issue is not actual quality, it’s perceived quality. Chinese companies will fight decades of history and negative perception to reach top of the market consumers, a segment obsessed with perception.
- itsthecourier 9mo agojust got an etron because my partner wanted a xpeng, guy is super happy in that xpeng and I gotta say, he's right
- ako 9mo agoEtron is Audi?
- kjellsbells 9mo agoThen again, it's been done before. - Japanese consumer goods were perceived as junk until the tipping point was reached, and then they were perceived as high-quality, easily equalling or surpassing Western goods. That took ~30 years (1950 to 1980, say). Older readers will recall the controversy over Akio Morita's (Morita-san being the founder of Sony) statements in the book "The Japan that can Say No" (edit: see [0]), which seems strangely prescient in the sense that it ignited a lot of (US) debate around dependence on foreign semiconductors. - Then there was Taiwan, again, a 30 year cycle from about 1970 to 2000. Taiwan used to be known for cheap textiles, consumer dross, and suchlike. Not now... My point is that the way to get better at products is to make them and make them and make them, and eventually an export-led country reaches a tipping point where the consumers flip over, and their perception changes. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Japan_That_Can_Say_No https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Japan_That_Can_Say_No
- idiot900 9mo agoThis was once said about Japanese cars. I don’t want a Chinese car now, but I probably will not too long from now.
- p1necone 9mo agoChinese electronics manufacturing now is like Japan in the 60s/70s - I give it like a decade max before "Made in China" is widely understood to mean "High Quality" rather than the "Cheap Junk" connotation it still has today.
- thaumasiotes 9mo agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYjsZr1PwM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYjsZr1PwM If you read Calvin and Hobbes you can learn that Taiwan used to be known for making... shirts.
- pixl97 9mo agoIt's like that with tools if you know what to buy, and costs well below the US brands. For my primary tools I'll have hundreds of hours of use I still buy the more expensive brands, but on tools I'll use much less commonly I'll pick up a Chinese unit in a heartbeat for 1/10th the price.
- woooooo 9mo agoThe upper quartile are in the US and they're not allowed to buy Chinese cars, so you are right by default. That notwithstanding, Xiaomi cars are nicer than Teslas. They're called "the Apple of China" for a reason.
- IncreasePosts 9mo agoThey can't buy Chinese cars now, but I imagine the next Democratic president might want to knock Elon musk down a peg or two.
- bluGill 9mo agoThe next democrat still has ford and gm - with a lot of union labor - to worry about.
- bluedino 9mo agoMore people work for Target than the UAW
- bluGill 9mo agoUAW pays better and is politically more powerful. They care more about UAW than Target employees
- bluedino 9mo ago> UAW pays better In some cases: Target - in 2022 we enhanced our starting pay again, offering a range of $15 to $24 per hour UAW wages at the big three automakers start at $18 and top out in the $30's. Meanwhile, UAW jobs at suppliers can start as low as $14/hr. You're probably not going to get 20-30 hours of overtime a week at Target, though. Only 150,000 of the 380,000 UAW members are employed by the big three. You also have union skilled trades jobs (electricians, millwrights, etc) that make more than production workers but Target pays their electricians etc more than the retail workers as well.
- jacquesm 9mo agoThe (potential, no experience) quality issues are to me far outweighed by the enabling of yet another country to become a superpower which will then sooner or later result in yet another confrontation. Russia should have taught at least Europe that this sort of trade can only backfire in the longer term. Yes, I realize, China is the world's factory now, but there is no reason that can not change. I'm trying really hard to buy European made products and to use European services where possible. There are still a couple of hard nuts to crack but I'll get there.
- pixl97 9mo agoIn the US for example, most of the US brands are already made in China. They will copy the tooling and put a different brand name on it and you'll have a tool of the same quality for way less cost. Simply put China is an unrecognized superpower at this point with the investments they've already made. The amount of infrastructure they've built in a decade dwarfs what the West has done in decades.
- vlovich123 9mo agoSorry, the country with nukes, nuclear submarines, a massive navy and a permanent member on the UN Security Council isn’t recognized as a superpower? By whom?
- NetMageSCW 9mo agoWhat massive Navy would that be?
- vlovich123 9mo agoChina has an estimated number of 370 battle force ships to the US’s 296 (US has 11 aircraft carriers to China’s 3). China’s total fleet displacement is about half but their ship building capacity is significantly higher. They are generally ranked second today behind the US and have been there since the last 2010s when they overtook Russia. They’ve been number 3 since 1987.
- light_hue_1 9mo agoNothing to do with quality. It's all image. When Americans discover again how crappy their cars are compared to what's available elsewhere, like we did with Japan, there will be a reckoning once more. And again American cars will become the laughing stock they really are. In the meantime, this incredibly short sighted protectionism will end just like the last round did. Further hollowing out our industrial base and permanently giving away large parts of a massive market. And I'm sure all of the people involved in this insanity will want a bailout too.
- linksnapzz 9mo ago>When Americans discover again how crappy their cars are compared to what's >available elsewhere, like we did with Japan No, that's not what happened. Japanese manufacturers made cars in the US, to match US tastes. Japanese cars as sold in Japan, were not models Americans would buy. >In the meantime, this incredibly short sighted protectionism will end just like >the last round did. It'll end with...Chinese cars made in US factories w/ American workers? Chinese V8 pickup trucks failing to win market share against the US competition?
- pixl97 9mo agoUS cars in the late 70s and early 80s sucked, you just had to be there to know how bad they were. The Japanese made cars for the US that were different than local cars, but they were also different from what the US was making.
- ssl-3 9mo agoThat's not the history that I recall. Let's look at Honda, just as an example. Honda started selling cars in the US in 1970, with their quirky, tiny, Japan-made N600. The Civic didn't happen until 1973, and it was also a Japanese-built car. Bigger than the N600 but still very small by American standards, it was the right car at the right time for the oil crisis the US was beginning to face. They sold a lot of Civics to Americans, despite the strong anti-Japanese sentiment around that time. It wasn't until 1982 that Honda started building cars in the States, with the introduction of the Honda plant in Marysville, Ohio that began building Accords. But even then: They still didn't build all of the USDM Accords in Marysville; many were still built in Japan and imported. It took additional years for the transition to fully occur. --- That's 12 years from the time that they started selling cars in the US, to the time when they began to build their US-market cars in the US. (If 12 years sounds like a short period of time, remember: We've only had the Tesla Model 3 for about 9 years now.)
- protocolture 9mo agoNo its the other way. In 4x4 They cannibalised the GM-Holden Colorado chassis production line in Thailand when GM exited that market, have refitted it with chinese made electronics and shell, and have complete quality parity. Actually a few people think the engine is better, and I am forced to agree. One of the colorado downstream models I tested had a better turning circle. They also tend to pack in all the "extras" other brands put on as standard. Consumers face a choice between cheaper and better vs tried and true brand loyalty. And brand loyalty has a limit tbh.
- csomar 9mo agoThe quality angle was true 10 years ago, but that's no longer the case. Chinese cars are now superior in some areas and inferior in others (you can feel that some finishing is incomplete), but on average (and especially considering the price) they're better. The gap in the inferior areas is very small, and I wouldn't be surprised if they fully surpass European cars this year, given the new models they're releasing.
- auggierose 9mo agoPeople are buying £60000 BYD cars left and right. That's quite an expensive car.
- amanaplanacanal 9mo agoI grew up hearing the same thing about the Japanese back in the 60s and 70s. That didn't last though.